Scam Company Exposed, HOAs Under Fire, and College Football Rivalries!

This is episode number 334 of The Homeowner Show. Well, whether you're DIY or looking to hire, we're here to help you find the best information and options for you and your home. My name is Kevin Hackett, and here with me is Craig Williams.

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to The Homeowner Show. We're so glad you could join us for another episode here in the studio. How you doing, Kev?

I am doing great. It's good to be back in the studio and life's good.

Yeah.

I think that one of these days it might turn into fall here in Houston, but I don't know when it's going to be.

Tell my armpits when that happens, please.

Exactly. How are you, man?

I'm doing good, man. Dude, let's go ahead and get the sponsor out of the way.

Okay, let's do it.

Because we want to make sure and give them credit where credit is due. Thank you guys for helping us supporting them and keeping us on the air by supporting our sponsors. Sponsor today is, help me out, Kev.

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Thank God, I had a complete brain fart. I was like, I was ready for it. I was like, I know what they do. I know who they are. I can say their names. True Texas Solar and Roofing. That's it.

That's it. And man, let me tell you, like, this is, we're kind of in one of those times where we're at the coming up on the end of the year. And tax incentives are still in place.

Yep.

They have not been removed.

For some weird reason.

For some weird reason. Lots of other things have been removed, it feels like. But here's the thing. If you're interested in getting some tax incentives, do it before the end of the year.

Yeah.

Like try to get that in sooner than later, you know? Yeah.

Well, and not only that, I mean, like when, when we say True Texas Solar and Roofing, I mean, like you immediately think solar panels and roofing, which sure, they do that and they do an incredible job at it, but it's a full whole home energy independence company, generators, whole home batteries, the whole shebang of whatever it is that you want with power independence, they got you covered.

Yeah. And the other thing that they're really leaning into a lot right now is Tesla. They've got like the full line of Tesla stuff. They're actually one of the only installers in the area that can do Tesla's solar roof, their Powerwall stuff, which is, you know, like plugging your, your device in, like your, I say your device, it's a car or whatever else. They can also do their batteries. So they've kind of got the full gamut of what Tesla offers. And look, Tesla's kind of the cream of the crop whenever it comes to—

And they're the standard.

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Well, we, we do have a, we got a couple stories we wanna get to tonight, but before we do, it is football season. It is football season. And we had a great weekend.

Yeah.

And let me, let me, let me, let me send some love to, to your Texas Tech Raiders.

Okay.

So I, I'll, I'll give you a, a, a thought that you probably wouldn't expect.

Okay.

I actually think they're probably the most dangerous team in college football right now.

Okay. And I'm not, I'm not saying— I'm curious why you think that.

I'm not saying they're the best.

Sure.

I'm thinking they're the most dangerous because I think most people are sleeping on 'em.

Yeah.

I think most teams are sleeping on 'em. I don't think most teams in the Big 12 are sleeping on 'em, but I don't think they have a choice at this point. Right. You know, well, the Big 12 is, I mean, look, who's the competition? It's, they, well, I mean, the Big 12 got gutted.

Right.

And now, I mean, like they still, I think they have one big hurdle in Arizona State.

Maybe.

I don't think that's a difficult hurdle for 'em.

No.

But I think, I think that, I think they've got a real good shot of being in the playoffs. No question.

Yeah.

Especially if they win out.

Sure.

Which it looks really possible for them right now.

Yeah, I mean, you know, you win the Big 12, you're in. That's first and foremost. I mean, you control your own destiny if you are in a major conference by just winning your conference.

Yeah. You know, and I think that's fair.

Sure.

But I think the win that they had over U of H was more significant than a lot of people are giving them credit for.

Yeah.

U of H is no chump.

No, especially with their defense. Their defense is, I think that they, here's what I think. I think U of H slept on Oregon State. I really think that U of H was not expecting Oregon State to be much. I mean, Tech comes in and just annihilates Oregon State.

Right.

And they, I think they just probably thought, eh, it's not that big of a deal. But they were down and they came back and wound up winning against them. And you come and play at U of H. Now, there's a lot of people who can say what you want to. It was a— I mean, Tech was overwhelmingly present.

Sure.

At that game.

I mean, it's an in-state rivalry.

It's an in-state rivalry. And it's— and Houston has things to prove.

Well, there's a lot of Tech fans in Houston.

There's a lot of Tech fans in Houston. You're right. But Houston— the U of H has a lot to prove.

Yeah.

Not in basketball. But they want people to— They want people to know that they're around in football.

Yeah, and I think they probably will be in a couple years. I mean, I think they'll always be number 2, number 3 in the Big 12 in years to come.

Yeah.

You know, they've got the right coach to get 'em in line.

They do.

So I don't think— so then, and that's why I say I think they're probably one of the most dangerous, if not the most dangerous team in college football right now. I think people are sleeping on 'em. They moved them up in the rankings, but I think people are still looking at them like, what?

Why? Well, but you know, I also, I think that Tech is right where they need to be. Mm-hmm.

I would've loved— You mean in the rankings?

Yeah, I would've loved to see them at 8.

Uh-huh.

I think that they could've bumped Alabama. I mean, Alabama has a loss.

Sure.

You know, you can say what you want to about strength, whatever. Alabama has a loss. I think they could have put them at eight, but honestly, I think it's just that's where Tech needs to be to give them a little bit of a you know what? You want to leave us at nine? Sure. Okay. Leave us at nine. We'll we'll show you.

Nine's fine. You're still in the playoffs.

Oh yeah, absolutely. It's totally fine. It I I will agree with you. I don't think people think of Tech as a powerhouse in any way, shape, or form.

Yeah.

They're getting a lot of people talking about them.

They are.

Just because of the money they spent.

Well, and the stats they're putting up this year.

But the stats they're putting up is different.

Yeah.

Yeah. The, the, here, here's what I will tell you. The biggest weakness right now, um, for Tech is they're still making stupid errors and they're, they're fouling in ways that are dumb.

Mm-hmm.

Little like false starts. illegal shifts. Yeah, things like that that are just dumb. Um, but they'll figure some of that out. They'll, they'll work through some of that. We came off of a bye week, and you would think that a bye week would make you better, but it typically doesn't.

Sure.

Uh, and so, you know, there's, there's that to work through. And, and frankly, and this is something that a lot of Tech fans are talking about, is that a lot of people think that the backup quarterback's better than the starter. And I believe he is, but he's more immature.

Sure.

The starter has more maturity. Um, and so there's that. I think the raw talent, the backup's better. Uh, so there's a lot of life there. Here's what I'm expecting. And here's, I guess here's the X factor that, that I've thought about. I don't know how many other people have thought about this. Here's what I think is going to happen. I think that they're going to wind up rolling over quite a few teams in the Big 12, which means I think they're going to get more backups in for more games than any other team that will be in the playoffs, which means I think that they will have greater experienced depth than other teams based on maybe injuries down the line.

Yeah.

Or just, you know, you get winded and you got to put a backup in. I think that Tech has a greater opportunity for backups to have experience.

To develop.

To develop.

Yeah.

Down towards the end of the season.

So we'll see. Yeah, we'll see. I mean, it's, it's, that's, I think that's a double-edged sword because, you know, if, if you're playing so well that you're just steamrolling 'em and you put your second and third strings in on a pretty regular basis, like you probably hadn't been popped in the mouth yet.

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely possible. I mean, we know we— they're, they're, you know, Utah was a tough— was a tough game, uh, especially the first half. I mean, it was, it was a tough sledding on that.

Yeah.

Uh, Arizona State, maybe we'll see.

Maybe even BYU, man.

Maybe BYU. They're still undefeated and they're, they're undefeated. And again, they've got something to prove. Anytime you've got that, Tech now had, you know, kind of like A&M.

Yeah.

has a little bit of a target on their back. People are starting to go, okay, we've got to figure out a way to beat them, especially in the Big 12. You're right, the Big 12.

Yeah.

SEC, they still— SEC still has big brother syndrome.

Yeah.

That we're better than everybody else. And for the most part, they are. I would completely agree with that. But they've got big brother syndrome. And so they never are going to think that a team like Tech is going to be better than them.

Oh, probably not.

But I will tell you, I was a little concerned for A&M in the first quarter.

Oh yeah.

I was going, I'm afraid I was right. Because if you remember a week or two ago, I was like, I just felt like A&M should have produced more on offense. Now their defense was unbelievable.

Oh yeah, their defense is playing lights out right now.

Right. But their offense was just, I felt like they were, they were slacking. Well, then the first quarter came out and I was like, really? The first half of that game. Um, I was like, oh, they're—

Yeah, they scored, they scored one touchdown, which it was a good touchdown. It was like a 34-yard pass.

Right. Um, but they got down to the goal line multiple times and could not punch it in.

Oh yeah. That before. Yeah.

Yeah.

That was, that was weird.

And it took forever. That took like 9 years for them to actually play that 4th down.

Yeah.

But, and then they missed it. And so like, I, I was just like, man, what, what's up? Well then the second half they, they kind of, they just took over, which, which is what they should do.

Yeah.

That's what they, that's what they should do. But, uh, so I, I felt better about A&M at that point as far as A&M goes. Um, so who knows?

Yeah. They, what I keep, what I keep hearing people say about them and I, I agree is we haven't seen them play a complete game.

Yeah, no, for sure.

And that's kind of scary.

Yeah.

'Cause I mean, like when, when they decide to do it, I mean, who's it gonna be against? God help them.

Yeah.

I mean, really. That'd be interesting. I mean, 'cause it, and I think, I think the big thing is just Reed. I think, I think he needs to just figure out how to come out.

I think he needs to calm down a little bit.

Just, yeah. 'Cause like once he, you can tell when he calms down. I mean, he's, he's throwing darts.

So much better.

And it's fun to watch.

I'll tell you what else is fun to watch is the implosion of Texas.

Oh my gosh. I mean, like— It's so delicious.

Like, I know that for you as an A&M guy, like watching Texas implode is great. But like for me, I mean, Texas has always been a rival for Tech as well.

Sure.

It's funny, like Texas doesn't see them as a rival as much, but Tech does.

Right.

And like, it is what it is. But I, you know, I don't, I don't have a clue what's happening. Like, it, like, it, it's just unbelievable to go from ranked number 1 at the beginning of the season to now you're not even in the 25.

Oh, they were, but like, here's the thing is they were in the top 10 still somehow. And because they lose to Florida, they're out of the top 25.

Yeah.

Same with Penn State.

Penn State. Well, Penn State lost back-to-back games.

Well, I think that Penn State's more fair than Texas.

I agree.

Um, but like, And, and you know this, I've been singing this song all along. Like, like there's just like weird Kool-Aid in Austin, man, where everybody's just drinking it and going like, oh, Texas is the best. And like they, you know, yeah, we always are top 5 programmers. Like, nope, you guys suck right now.

Yeah. I don't—

and everybody can see it. I think it's the emperor's clothes, man.

Yeah. I don't know. And it's not just, it's not just Arch. No, it's not just Arch. Arch is making poor mistakes and he's not doing great, but like, but it's not just him.

He's a young court— and like, I don't, I don't mean to like defend the enemy here, but like, he's a young quarterback and the line is just allowing him to continue to get pressured and pressured and pressured and pressured and pressured. And like, look, we, we knew from last year he wasn't that great of a pocket passer to start with.

Right.

He just wasn't.

Right. I mean, his legs are—

his legs is what makes him dangerous.

Right.

And it's not to say he's a bad passer. It's just like, but that's the element that adds that allows him to be a not great passer. I'm sure he'll develop into one.

If, if he becomes an elite passer, if he could, it'll be, it'll be dangerous.

But do you think if he was an elite passer right now that they would still be where they're at? No, I don't. Yeah. See, that's the thing. Me, me too. I'm like, I don't, I just don't see it.

Right.

They're not playing like an elite team.

No. So they've got, they've got other issues that they gotta, that they gotta work out. But, um, it is, it is pretty interesting because this is one of those years where I think there has been so much movement from week to week to week.

Mm-hmm.

In the rankings, which I don't put a lot of stock in the rankings. They're so weird to me to begin with.

Sure.

And it's, it's so much conjecture and there's so many factors that you have to weigh in and Some of them don't make sense, whatever.

Yeah.

But the rankings are still there and they are the metric. So I'm gonna go off the metric and the fact that you had a number 1 team that is no longer in the top 25, you had a top 5 team that's no longer in the 25. You have teams that were ranked in the 20s. Mm-hmm. That are now in the top 10.

Yep.

Like there has been a massive amount of, of topsy-turvy happening.

Yeah.

And it's more so than I remember.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

Yeah.

I like it.

And I'm here for it.

Yeah.

I like it.

It's like, it's like every week I'm going, what is happening?

Yeah. You know, the other thing that I'm, I'm, I'm a little giddy about is, uh, Red River's this week.

Oh yeah, it is.

And I, I really think Texas could wreck OU's world.

It, I, well, there's, they're always gonna pull something out.

Yep.

I mean, this is the biggest rivalry in college football almost.

It's like the only time I really ever root for Texas is when they play OU.

Yeah, in the South.

Yeah.

Especially in the Texas-Oklahoma area, it is the largest rivalry that's out there because as much as A&M and Texas is a rivalry, it's not the same as OU and Texas when it comes to football. I know there's Michigan State and Michigan, and I know there's, you know, these other things.

South Carolina. Yeah. Yeah.

There's some out there.

Florida.

For, for us, right. For what I grew up with, from what I remember of my life, Texas OU has always been a big, big deal. And I, I think you're right. This weird stuff always happens in that, in that game.

Yeah. 'Cause I mean, OU's, OU's sitting up on top of a hill right now. They are. And Texas would love nothing more than to knock them both off at the bottom.

Well, and a lot of other people too.

A lot of other people. Yeah. So, uh, it should be fun. Yeah, I'm excited about it. So anyway, um, so we've got— let's talk about this story out of Florida real quick because I think, I think that's kind of a fun one. And, um, but anyway, uh, there is a Florida congressman— or state rep, excuse me— state rep Juan Carlos Porras. Uh, he's a Republican out of Miami. He is out there talking a lot right now about HOAs being a failed experiment and that the state of Florida, Florida actually needs to ban them.

So, okay. Before you go any further, a failed experiment that's been how many years in the making?

That's actually a good question.

Like, this is not, this is not something that was like, hey, we've tried this over the last 10 years and let's see if it's gonna work out. We, we've had HOAs for prob— I'm guessing it's been 50, 60, 70 years. I mean, especially in these large cities. Now, small cities, they don't really do that kind of thing, but in the large cities, there's a reason that they came into place, and it's been a long time.

So the first formal HOA is generally recognized to be the Hunt Country Club in Rye, New York, established in 1938.

Okay, so we're 100 years almost.

So it didn't really become prevalent until the 1950s and 1960s though. Okay.

So, uh, I'm not too far off, but like, it's been 90 years since the first one came into place.

Yeah.

That would be the experiment. Right. But even the '60s and '70s, I mean, we're, we're 60 years, 60, 70 years removed from that.

Right.

This is no longer an experiment.

Well, and like, I, I think we could probably all agree that whatever happened in 1938 and anything in the '50s and '60s looks nothing like what we have today.

Sure. Absolutely not. And, and not only that, the prevalence of it is nowhere near what it is today because every neighborhood has an HOA.

Just about.

I mean, even, even our neighborhood, which is a, a much smaller neighborhood in— not, not in land mass, but in house numbers, uh, just because it's acreage areas, um, we don't have an HOA, but we have a POA, which is similar but different.

Right.

Um, it's, but they're, they're everywhere.

Yeah.

Even ours being a POA, it's, it's less restrictive than an HOA is in many ways, but it's still different.

Yeah. I, I think, I mean, and one of the big problems with this story, I mean, at least with this guy's proposal, is you, you have things like, by, by the way, this, this article is showed up all over the place.

Yeah.

This, the one I'm pulling from right now is actually off realtor.com.

Okay.

Um, You have the problem of gated communities. And how do you— well, there's a bunch of problems. One, property management companies are just gonna cry foul right off the bat.

100%.

How dare you? You can't do this.

They make so much money off of this because right now our dues are stupid cheap because it's run by the people. that live there.

Yep.

We are in a place right now where they just— at our last POA meeting, which was a few weeks ago, where they said a lot of the people— a lot of people, there's like 3 people on the board— they're getting old. And they're like, look, we— if we don't find someone else to take our place, we're gonna have to hire it out. Yep. And it'll quadruple the, the amount of money we gotta spend. Be— and it'll have to be farmed out to a property management company.

Oh. And our neighborhood's actually talking about doing that right now. And I keep telling them, I'm like, like, you guys can do this, but I don't think you know what you're inviting in the door.

That's the problem.

And I'm not speaking ill of property management companies. Like, they do, they do what they do and they do a good job. But like, right now we have a lot of benefits by not having a property management company come in and tell us what to do. Well, the problem is, is we've got some good old boys in our neighborhood that have decided, that they're just gonna continue to do good old boy stuff, and it's pissing some people off.

Yeah.

Um, and the way to solve that is to have an intermediary. Yep.

You know, um, um, you know, well, you take out the problem of it's your next door neighbor that is the person coming down on you.

Yep.

Ver— you know, now it's a business, it's a company coming down on you. Yep. And they can do it differently.

So here's, here's, I mean, like, when you, when you start bringing in property management companies, here's, here's the problem. And like, I'm not saying that rules shouldn't be followed, but you lose the ability to have any understanding for the rules. Yeah. Meaning, you know, you know, if my neighbor is having a hard time and they can't pay their dues or they can't mow their grass or something like that. And, you know, if I'm a good neighbor, I'm like, when it comes to like grass mowing and stuff like that, if my neighbor's struggling, if it's a widow woman, I'm going to go mow the grass for her.

Get it taken care of. Right.

So, but, you know, say she doesn't have good neighbors.

Yeah.

And she can't get her grass mowed. She's too old to do it. And the HOA comes down and says, you got to mow your grass. And if you don't, we're going to put a lien on it. We're going to hire a company and do it ourselves.

Right.

Like you lose the ability within a community to offer that kind of understanding to somebody. Yeah. And say, hey, like as a community, we're going to come together and take care of you.

You lose being a community in many ways.

Yep. Yep. You don't have to, you don't have to go across the street and talk to your neighbor anymore because you can just like send the management company photos of the things you don't like and then they're gonna come harass them.

Yep.

Um, and I, I know, again, it's legal to do that right now because there, there are HOAs, which I think is exactly what this guy's talking about.

So another thing that, that is a problem though is you, you mentioned a gated community. As soon as you put a gate up, yep. You know who's responsible for the road?

The people within.

Yep. So if it's a city, uh, you know, a city road or a state road or whatever the road is, as soon as you put a gate up, you are responsible for the maintenance there within.

Mm-hmm.

So you take away HOAs, you have, you have to do something about the gate.

Yep.

Like, what are you gonna do with all of that? And there are hundreds of gated communities.

Oh, in Florida in particular?

Yeah. And see, it— so our neighborhood has resisted putting up a gate because we don't want to maintain the road. Yeah. Because you want to talk about jacking up prices of what you got to pay for, you know how much it takes to maintain a road?

It's really expensive.

It's really expensive. And guess what? I'm already paying taxes.

Yep.

And that's what my taxes go to, or at least part of it. So like, if I'm paying taxes and I got to pay for a road, now I'm double paying. It's a huge pain. So like, that's another problem you've got. And I, I hear what the guy's saying, but these are 2 glaring problems.

Yeah. And look, they bring in a couple of examples and there's this one gal, she ended up in jail because her grass was brown.

That's a problem.

That's a big problem.

That's a problem.

You know, and I think it's examples like that that are just going to bolster his support. I don't know that he's got the right idea. I think exposing these power-hungry, you know, board-sitting retired people that have nothing better to do than to comment on like the shade of blue that you painted your door. Like, it's stuff like that. Like, I think, I think probably the better way to approach this might be to limit the powers of HOAs.

Yeah.

Rather than abolish them altogether. Because I mean, like, you and I both know that HOAs do some good things.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I mean, prime example, man, in our neighborhood, we had some people that got grandfathered in. As you came into our neighborhood, there was this really busted up old trailer.

I remember.

And it's been there since we moved in.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, the person that lived there passed away.

Okay.

And so the family finally decided to just take it down.

Thank goodness.

And it's like, there is like everyone in the neighborhood is cheering.

Yeah.

Not because this person died.

No.

But because this eyesore is now gone.

That's right.

And it was awful.

Sure.

And like, they literally couldn't move the trailer. They had to just bust it up. It was rotten. And just tear it into pieces.

Yeah.

Destroy it and then move it out in dumpsters. That was the only thing they could do.

Right.

And they're still doing it. It's taken 'em over a week.

Yeah.

So I mean, like, they do good things and maybe the answer is to limit the power. I don't know because I, you know, I understand the frustration of I can't paint my house.

Sure.

Um, but like at the same time, you don't want your neighbor to be able to like paint their house pink and purple polka dots. Sure.

And why?

Just because it's ugly. Well, sure. But that's subjective. But like it brings down the value of the other houses.

That's the whole— in my, my understanding of what a homeowner association is, protect the values of the home. Protect the value of the home. And so whenever you paint a house pink polka dotted, right? It, it, someone's gonna be like, I don't wanna live next to that house.

Sure.

And so the value of your house is lower.

Right.

Right. If the person next to you has 4-foot-tall grass and there's a car in there and, you know, guess who doesn't wanna move in? Anybody.

Right.

So there is these, these things that a homeowner association does to protect the value of your home. So here's the question. Let's say 4-foot grass man next door, uh, won't mow his grass. Maybe can't mow his grass. Maybe he doesn't have, uh, maybe he has mobility issues.

Right.

And maybe he has financial issues on top of it. And maybe he doesn't have any family who can come do it. And maybe his neighbors are going, you know what? I'm not gonna help the guy.

Mhmm.

What do you do? Like, what, what, at what point, like, you can go, you, here, here's what typically is gonna happen. Um, they're gonna hire someone to come in and do it, whether the guy gives them permission to or not, because now the, the homeowners association has the right, because you signed when you, when you purchased that house, you signed the agreement on the HOA.

Yes.

So you, that is, That is a legal document that is in your, uh, your legal documents.

Should be in your file folder somewhere.

File folder somewhere that you signed agreeing to it. So now they've got the right to come onto your property to mow the grass. They found the car, maybe even move the car out of your yard. Who knows what they, what they've done? They're gonna put a lien on your home for the amount of that. To what end?

Yeah.

Like, if, if you, do you rack up $30,000 in, in fees? I guess. But where does that money come from?

Everybody else in the neighborhood.

Everybody else in the neighborhood.

Yep.

Well, I'm not happy about that. Nobody's happy about that, but that's the way that happens. To what end? Now, I'm not saying that— I am saying, what I am saying is that the lady getting arrested because she had brown grass.

Mm-hmm.

It's a problem. That's a problem. And I'm not okay with that answer.

Yeah.

But to what end? Like, what happens? How do you just let this guy live there? And how do you allow him to rack up however many tens of thousands of dollars because you've just continued to have to get someone to take care of it? So what do you do? I don't know the answer. Yeah.

I mean, I think one, I think we need more communities that don't have HOAs.

Yeah, I would agree with that.

You know, and but the problem is, is people that are willing to develop these neighborhoods are unwilling to do it without an association.

Yeah.

So, and I understand why. I mean, like, they have an investment to protect as well. And, you know, the way that you create customers in the home buying experience is you create incentives for them to move in, right? You know, whether that be through services, whether— and like, there's extreme ends of this. I mean, you look at Bluejack, Have you been out to Blue Jack?

I've never been out there.

Do you know—

I would love to.

Uh, it's, it's gorgeous.

Sure.

Um, and there's a really good reason no one in Blue Jack owns a lawn mower.

Yeah, because you don't have to.

Because you can't—

you can own one, but you can't do your own grass. You can't use it. Yeah.

The, the landscaping, not just the lawn mowing, all landscaping is maintained by the neighborhood.

Wow.

And they have a, it's like the whole neighborhood is a golf course.

Yeah.

And I don't mean that in the sense like the whole neighborhood's a golf course.

It looks like a golf course.

They have a crew, a landscaping crew that's hired exclusively for that neighborhood to maintain all of the golf course and all of the residents.

Right.

So that's part of your HOA fees.

Sure.

All landscaping, flowers, trimming the hedge.

Mulch.

Mulch.

Awesome.

All of it.

That's awesome.

And it's done so they can, they can control it. Yep. They can keep it uniform and it looks awesome out there.

You pay for it.

You pay for it. By God, you pay for it.

You paid for the house and now you're paying for everything.

And you probably gave 'em like your firstborn. I mean, I just, I don't know, but like, yeah, you pay for it.

Yeah, of course. And, and I'm, I'm not against that. If you, if that's the way you wanna spend your money, by all means, knock yourself out, spend your money that way. But here's the truth. There are, there are neighborhoods that have flourished for years and years and years with someone being able to park their camper in the driveway.

Yep.

And it's been fine.

Yep. I mean, my, my, my parents' neighborhood is a prime example.

Yeah.

It's an, it's an acreage neighborhood.

Mm-hmm.

There's no HOA.

No.

Now there's some downsides to that.

Yeah.

You know, the guy that opened the halfway house down the street, right? That was a problem.

That was a problem.

So, and he flipped everyone the bird when they went on Facebook and said, what the hell?

Yep.

And he said, yeah, you guys can buy me out. Just pay me 3 times what I paid for this place and I'll be happy to leave.

Yep.

And—

And you also have a zoo.

Yep.

Is there a backyard?

There's a private zoo.

And again, that's actually kind of cool.

It is cool.

But if you don't want a zoo in your backyard, well, sorry.

Tough noogies.

Right? What are you gonna do?

Yeah.

You know?

No, I'm like, and that's the thing is like you move in that neighborhood, you should go in with eyes wide open.

Right.

Like anything can happen.

Anything.

And I kind of like that.

It's not gonna change. I mean, that, that neighborhood's probably not gonna change.

No.

And, and it's fine. But again, that is an appeal to that neighborhood.

It's an appeal to certain people.

To certain—

there's some people it would just drive bananas.

Of course. But if you want—

but that's what I mean is I think we need more communities like that.

I agree.

Uh, you know, where, where people can, like, they can put a stupid fountain in their front yard if they really want to. Um, you know, they, they could dig a hole.

Yep.

I mean, like, just, it's your property.

I think it's gonna take something besides a development company owning all the land.

Mm-hmm.

It's gonna take the city owning the land or some investor that's like, look, I'm just trying to get the land sold. That, that maybe the city zones certain areas. It's like, this cannot be restricted by an HOA.

Well, the reason you can't do it is because it requires so much infrastructure.

Yeah.

To go in and build the roads.

Right.

Put the, put the plumbing in. Right. Put the sewage in. I mean, all, all that's all the drainage and everything that has to happen. Like, there's a big investment when it, the way you get away with it is when I think you start having 5-acre tracts. Mm-hmm. That are, and, and you start dropping wells.

Yeah.

And septic systems.

Yeah.

Like, that's when you can kind of get away from more of this HOA nonsense.

Sure. Because, well, like, my neighborhood's a prime example of that. There's one primary road that goes through it. There's a couple of offshoots. Mm-hmm. That's what the city has to maintain. Yeah, that's about it.

Um, but would much change in your neighborhood if like you guys just didn't have the POA?

No, probably not. Uh, there's, there are certain, like, there's not that many restrictions, but what I will tell you, the, the restriction—

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to have it.

I'm just asking you like— No, no, no. The restrictions are a few things. There can only be one primary residence on the Mm-hmm. On the property. Well, that in and of itself is a pretty big deal cuz you don't have just a bunch of, you know, people just renting out rooms in their house. Sure. Right. So that, that changes the, the landscape of the community as far as who lives there.

Yeah.

That's part of it. You, you can't, uh, there's weird things like you can't have roosters in our neighborhood.

Oh, but you can have chickens.

So you can have, no, you can't have chickens either.

Oh, you can't have chickens either. Okay.

But that's, again, It's a gray area because if you don't know I have chickens, who cares? Sure. Chickens don't make any noise. So typically, so I'm sure there are people in our neighborhood that have chickens.

Right.

But there's little things like that that would change. And would it be all that big of a deal for most people?

Yeah.

Not a big deal whatsoever.

Yeah. And this, this is, this is what I mean when I say, like, you lose the ability to have understanding. So I'll tell you what's happening in our neighborhood right now. is I keep bees.

Yeah.

So there is a rule in our HOA that you cannot have any agriculturally producing animals on your property.

Oh, okay.

So now we can mince those words a lot of different ways.

Yeah.

Because I don't sell honey.

Right.

I just keep bees.

Right.

And I do it for tax purposes.

Right. Um, and you're one of the only properties in the neighborhood that can do that?

Yes.

Because of the size?

Because of the size of my property.

You're one of the— you're the— you are the largest in the community, right?

I am.

Okay.

Um, so yeah, I'm the only one that can do it.

Yeah.

Um, now there's another resident in the neighborhood that keeps bees.

Okay.

And they are near a park and a couple of kids got stung.

Ouch.

And so now the HOA is filing a grievance against her to make her move her bees. She is well aware that I have bees. And so they're gonna probably make her get rid of her bees. And when that happens, she's probably just gonna roll over on me.

Probably.

So I had some conversations with like some of my board members like, look, I get that that's a rule and I'm kind of like standing on the edge of something here, But like, you make me get rid of my bees and it's gonna cost me thousands of dollars. Yeah.

Like every single year. Every year.

So I'm gonna be pissed.

Sure.

And they're like, we understand that, but like, you also need to understand, like, no one can see your bees from the road. No one comes near your bees.

Right.

We're probably just gonna leave you alone.

Okay. And probably.

But like, here's the problem, right? Is now they're gonna make a big deal about this rule that was already in place. No agricultural animals But you can have a horse.

I was gonna say that, but they don't, I guess they don't produce anything.

They don't produce anything. So, and I was like, okay, so what about a cow? Could I have a cow? And they're like, well, no agricultural animals. I'm like, yeah, but like they have like Highland Minis.

Right.

And like, but it's still a cow. And I was like, yeah, but that thing's not producing anything. It's a pet.

Right.

And they're like, yeah, but no goats either. And I'm like, oh, okay. Why? Like, I don't understand the rules. These make no sense to me now. because you're telling me I can have a dog, but I can't have a cow that's smaller than my dog.

Why?

Yeah. And like, it's, and there's like, there's no chickens. And I was like, I know lots of people here have chickens and you guys are just turning a blind eye because you know it's a stupid rule too. And that's the problem is when, and like, if you're gonna have rules, enforce the rules.

But they're arbitrary. That's the problem.

And they're not enforced. And then they're used to target specific people.

That.

Not, not, not to follow the rule.

Yeah.

But because somebody is not following it the way that you want them to follow it.

Right.

That's what pisses me off.

That's not okay. Yeah.

Um, so it's like either do it or don't.

Yeah.

You know, so it, it, it's just annoying. I, I get this guy's frustration. I, and like, it's, it's a, he's swinging a big hammer.

Yeah.

To try and solve a problem. I don't know it's the right solution. Yeah.

I mean, I, if he, if he's trying to raise some awareness, I don't know that saying I want to get rid of every HOA in the state of Florida is probably, it may not be your best move.

Yeah.

I, but I, I see your point. Maybe there needs to be some regulation.

I doubt he's gonna be able to get much support anyway.

I, no.

And he says he's gonna bring it before them before the close of session in January.

No. The problem is, so a lot of people really like HOAs.

Yeah, so there's some people that really do.

I mean, whether, whether you like paying the fee or not, if you have the choice of paying a fee or having, you know, unruly neighbors, you're probably going to pay the fee.

Sure.

It's not that big of a deal. I'll just pay it. And some places are more expensive than others, quite a bit more.

Yeah.

Um, you know, ours is $100— ours is $50 an acre. It's cheap.

That's not bad.

No. really cheap.

Yeah, I think ours is like $220 a year.

Yeah.

I mean, it's nothing.

Ours is $150 a year, so it's, it's cheap.

Yeah.

So anyway, well, that's not the only thing we got to talk about.

No, no, no, no. So I, I forget how many weeks ago it was now when you were out of town, we brought old Steve back in the studio.

Yeah.

Um, love having Steve on. Um, and we talked about insulation, and we, we talked about how we were getting stories about, uh, consumers being taken to the woodshed, right, by some pest control companies, uh, on replacing insulation. Um, and I know, I know there was probably a lot of people listening to that going like, yeah, whatever, you know, like it's one, one little thing. Yeah, 2 off, whatever. So I actually, we had somebody actually send us some communication, uh, from between their pest control company and their elderly mother. And this is from a— again, we're not gonna mention the name of the company because we don't wanna get tangled up in all that nonsense. Just know that it is a—

It's a company you've heard of.

You know the name.

I promise.

You've seen their commercials. That's about the most I'm willing to say. But I wanted to read this note to you guys. Because we got brought in, our, our pest control company got brought in, and we're probably gonna be able to solve this woman's problem for less than $500. Okay. Um, and I say, and some of you're going like, $500? Oh my gosh. Like, that's not that much.

No.

Um, especially when you hear what I'm about to read. Yeah. Um, yeah. Uh, so I'm gonna read it and Kev, feel free to stop me at any time. Okay. Um, I have some theories on this note and I actually sent it to Steve to make sure that like, this was just bunk.

Right.

Um, and a lot of it is. Um, now there's, there's a lot— that's the problem, is there's a lot of true things in this letter. Um, but I want— one, this is an 80-year-old elderly woman living in this house by herself.

Okay.

Uh, her daughter got brought in to deal with this pest control person Um, and, and try and get her mom's problem taken care of. And so you're going to hear about their interaction in, in the letter, but I just want perspec— want you guys to have perspective when it comes to one, like most of us are eventually going to have to deal with aging parents and it's going to be difficult and we're going to be brought in on situations like this and we're going to be tempted to just make the easy decision. This guy says this is, and let's just go ahead and get it taken care of.

So who is Being addressed in the email?

Who's, who's talking? The daughter.

So, so the daughter is being addressed and the, the person sending the email is the pest control company.

The specialist.

The specialist.

Yes.

Got it.

Yep. Um, so let me just start here and I'll try and leave the names out as I see them. Um, good luck. Thanks again. Uh, dear customer, thanks again for reaching out yesterday on your mom's behalf. I appreciate you looking out for her, and I would be the same with my 80-year-old mom. Without your mom having the service agreement in hand and you not being involved in the discussion yesterday, I can understand your reaction to simply seeing the costs. There's so much behind this issue, solutions, and in the way I put all this together. It is truly best to have these discussions in person, but as we may not be able to, I wanted to do the best I can in an email. To start, I want to assure you that I will never

recommend a service that someone doesn't need, and this starts with a very thorough inspection and assessment. Once I've formed a sound opinion, I take time to discuss my findings and recommendations with customers without rushing the meeting or pressuring people. Your mom and I spent a lot of time in discussion about the issues and creating an affordable plan that would properly take care of the problem. At the end of our visit, she expressed her gratitude and seemed very content with the plan. My inspection revealed extensive disturbance in her ceiling insulation from years of rodent activity and a home that was not adequately sealed. With existing openings and rodent feces on the back patio, it is very possible that rodents remain active in her attic. If not, the pheromones will

likely draw them back in. Following the classic process of mitigating rodents in homes or any building, you must first ensure that all possible entry points are properly sealed. If one gap exists, the rodents will eventually avoid traps and continue surviving. It troubled me to see that your mom only had a partial exclusion done and no ongoing coverage to get it done properly and to give her a renewable warranty for ongoing peace of mind. I wanted to set it up as a formal exclusion that she can renew for as long as she wants. Normally, we have to charge to full price for exclusions, even when part of the work has already been done, as in her case. For a home like hers, that price would

be about $1,900. What I did was neglect the policy and finagle the program to price it at $833. This will include sealing all existing gaps, unlimited following-up trapping, and 12 months of warranty. We will screen all of her weep holes every time, consuming, by the way, I guess, very time-consuming, by the way.

Okay.

Reseal her AC service lines and seal any other miscellaneous gaps and even install 2 garage door sweeps. That's actually $1,200 worth of service. I was able to get away with this because she was getting the attic remediation done as well. About the attic remediation, her attic is contaminated from the rodent activity and is a major health hazard. It also contains pheromones that will continue attracting— I didn't say that wrong, by the way. I'm just reading it as it's written.

Okay.

It also I assume that means it also contains pheromones that will continue attracting rodents to her home.

Yes.

As I think we are seeing. Cleaning up after rodent activity completes the process of mitigating rat problems. Just as you would clean your kitchen floor if a rat got in there, most of the contamination from roof rats is under the insulation on her ceiling where they live, and of course through it. Rodents deposit contaminants by dribbling urine where they travel, defecating, via saliva where they gnaw on things, and through the birthing process. People can contract diseases by ingestion of a bacteria or virus directly from a bite or by breathing dust particles that come from dried urine, feces, or saliva. The latter seems to be the most common vector. Dust from the attic can enter the

home in small amounts in various ways, including through the HVAC airstream. To mitigate the health— to mitigate to health hazard. Okay, like I can't— to mitigate the health hazard, I assume.

Yeah.

To mitigate the health hazard, the insulation has to be removed, the empty attic treated with a disinfectant, and pest control insulation added. This is the standard industry process as followed by the larger who are equipped for these— the larger companies who are equipped for these services. The insulation we install is a high-grade insulation material that is fire retardant, highly energy efficient at R, R 3.6 per inch, and controls 11 insects, including termites. This is the best stuff to use when you've had rodents in the home.

Are you having a hard time reading that with a straight face?

I'm just curious.

Sorry. I mean, look, okay, let's just stop for just 30 seconds.

Sure.

To this, before you hit—

There's more.

Before you hit the, the, the pest control insulation, I'm sitting here going, this all sounds fairly normal.

Uh-huh.

And he sounds intelligent from what— from a, from just a person who doesn't do pest control.

Uh-huh.

If I heard all of that as a consumer, I'm going, man, that actually makes— okay, that makes some sense.

Sure.

All right, continue.

Okay. You don't want me to talk about the insulation yet?

No, I think we want to come back to that in a minute.

Oh, okay.

Okay. Because I hit a huge red flag whenever I heard pest control insulation.

But continue.

There you go.

Yep. Her current insulation is not only contaminated, but also below the minimum recommended R-level of R-38. We were actually going to install extra at no charge and bring her to about R-40. This insulation is going to save her money in energy efficiency, prolong the life of her new AC system, reducing the risk of damage from wood-destroying insects, control roaches, earwigs, and 9 other common insects, improve acoustics in the house, give her fire protection. For 1,300 square feet of insulation, the industry price range is normally between $6,200 and $7,200. Our customers automatically get a special loyalty price of $4.50 per square foot for R-38. That would put her price at $5,850.

Okay.

As I assured you on the phone, I really went out on a limb for her with pricing and dropped it to $5,200. And I've never done that before.

Of course not.

The paperwork shows $5,000. $1,900 for removal plus $3,100 for install. As I mentioned yesterday, I shaved another $200 off to further help her with the required additional warranty for financing.

Thanks a lot.

The installation also qualifies for a 30% IRS tax refund. We weren't sure how her filing would accommodate the refund, but if it does, she would get back about $930. I can assure you that your mom is getting an excess of value for her money, and I've never structured pricing like this before. I was genuinely trying to help your mom get what she's— what she needs and make it affordable. Also, our finance rate is 18% and easily completed in our iPads. I actually restored— resorted to a manual agreement of an additional 1.5 of work to further help and reduce her rate to 8%. I then met with the branch manager yesterday to discuss her situation. And even though I had to admit that I priced the job a lot lower than permitted,

he graciously offered to have 2 of her annual renewals credited back to her. As a final bit of good news, as you might have read in my texts yesterday, I had corporate review the financing numbers that were calculated by, by an app I used for manual agreements. Apparently, the monthly rate was calculated in euros for some reason. After they adjusted it to the US dollar and recalculated, it's down to $204. Your mom won't be surprised because we both had some doubt that that's what I sent in for review. If we continue with the work, I'll draw up a new paper agreement and swing by for her to sign it. Of course, I suggest meeting with you as well. The way this is set up truly

favors your mom. She will get the rodent issue properly addressed. her attic cleaned up, additional improvements with the insulation, and have 4 years of coverage for peace of mind. The work will also be performed at the highest standard in the industry, backed by a $6 billion company that isn't going anywhere. And she's getting it done for a lot less than what most people pay with any company, about $1,600 less our normal competitive price. Thank you. Got time out for the— this email. I assume, thank you for taking time to read this email.

Yeah.

Hopefully this provided helpful insight and answered questions you may have had. Please feel free to call me. Best regards, blah, blah, blah, Senior Field Inspector Doofus.

Okay, now let me, my turn for just a minute.

Sure.

First, I do not know how many times we have said in our, What's it been?

7 years.

7 years of doing this podcast. Don't ever take one person's opinion.

No, not when it's something like this.

Never. You, you should always get 3, 2 if you can only get 2, but at least 3, maybe even 4 opinions and weigh them against each other. And Ask ChatGPT if you have to. I don't know. Like, like, take other people's opinions. This is a $10,000 bill from what I heard.

Sounds like it.

Um, and that's a lot to make sure that I don't have rats.

Uh-huh.

I would want some other pest control company to come in and give me their opinion. Sure. Here's the thing. If you went to the doctor and the doctor said, you have cancer and it's going to cost you $300,000 to cure the cancer. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to get a second opinion.

Yeah.

Because that sounds like not what I want to hear. I, I don't want to hear that. I want to hear something else. And if I find that someone else has another opinion, great. This happens all the time. Cancer patients have different options, right? They've got different types of, of treatment they can go to. Some are more expensive, some are more effective, whatever, whatever, right? Do the same thing on your home. Make sure you get other opinions.

Yeah.

Don't, don't just assume that this $6 billion company, which— why are you $6 billion? Maybe this is the reason. Um, don't assume that they're the only ones who have the answer. Number 2, I know for a fact, uh, that the highest you should pay for someone to add attic insulation— not the removal, that's another process, okay? But adding attic insulation, $1.50 to $2 a square foot. That's on the high end.

Yeah.

So this $4 that he is—

$4.50.

That he is, he is giving a discount on.

Yeah.

Graciously out of the comfort of my own heart. I'm so, it's, I'm just so gracious to be able to do this.

Yeah.

2.5 times what it should cost minimum.

Steve, Steve told me like right off the bat, he's like, I'd do it for $3. That's the industry standard right now.

And that's, and that's, that's removal and replacement.

Yes.

That is not just adding more. That is removal and replacement.

Yes. Yeah. So I, I had, uh, AI run the numbers on the financing because I didn't feel like looking up a—

Sure.

Interest calculator.

Good call.

So, I mean, like over, if it was over 5 years at 8%, um, she would end up paying close to $12,200.

Yes.

Yeah. So, um, he's graciously taking another $2,000.

Right. So if you're, if you're, I mean, run the number real quick. If, if it's $3 a square foot, how many square foot is the house?

I don't know.

So I don't know what it is.

You can probably do some math on that real quick.

Yeah. You can probably do some math on that. Here's what I will tell you. Mm-hmm. At $4.50 down to, down to, to $3.

Well, what was it? I mean, hang on. We can, we can do this real quick.

You're saving a whole lot of money. Just there, right alone. Now let me tell you something else.

What was the, what was the total for the, do you remember?

Uh, uh, yeah, it was 3, no, it was $5,000.

Let's just do $5,000.

5, just say $5,000. Um, now while you're doing that math, mm-hmm, let me just throw something out there.

Please say it. Okay, so it's, it's, it's like 11, 1,100 and it's 1,100 square feet essentially. If I'm round— if I'm rounding down.

It's probably more than that.

I assume 1,200.

Probably. Yeah. That's a— so if it's a small home, it's a small home.

1,200 times 3.

Yeah. $3,600.

$3,600.

So you're saving $1,400 just, just by using someone that is not—

You're paying more in interest.

Right. Yeah, exactly. You're right. So here, let me just say something else, just so everyone hears.

Uh-huh.

I— look, Kevin is not a pest control expert, right? Kevin is also not an insulation expert. But you know what? I have very good friends that are both of those things, and there is no such thing, uh-huh, as pest control insulation. Nope. It does not exist.

Doesn't exist.

It is not a thing.

So here's, here's the problem. Okay. There is insulation that contains boric acid.

Sure.

This is a thing.

Sure.

The only reason that insulation contains boric acid, and boric acid is a known pesticide.

Okay.

Will it irritate bugs? Maybe.

Yeah.

Maybe.

Yeah. Um, can't I just buy that stuff at the store and just sprinkle it in there?

Boric acid?

Yeah.

Yeah, you can.

Okay.

You absolutely can. I don't recommend it, but you can.

Why would you? But you could.

I mean, look, you put boric acid in your attic, you ever go up there, it will light you up.

I'm sure it will.

Like, it won't, I don't know that it will like hurt you, it'll just like irritate your sinuses and all that kind of stuff. But the only reason boric acid is in insulation is because they found that it reduced burn time by 25%.

That's pretty big.

That's huge.

Yeah.

That's the only reason it's there.

Yeah.

And again, not all insulation even contains boric acid.

Sure, sure.

It's, it's not like a standard thing that you have, but it's an option that you can have.

Right.

And I think, again, I think what happened is these pest control companies, these large pest control companies, uh, wanted to get into remediation because they understand there's good money there.

I get that.

We're in remediation too. We do a lot of it.

Yep.

There's good money there.

Sure.

Especially when you do a good job and you're honest. Um, but when they started seeing, hey, this insulation has boric acid, we use boric acid.

Yeah.

To kill stuff.

Yeah.

And it works. We can tell people we've got pest-resistant insulation. And it— there's one, if, if it's, if it's a pest item, show me the label.

That, that's That's one of the things that maybe is the most irritating thing to me out of all of this, is if it doesn't show on the label that it is something, guess what it isn't.

Yeah. And, and, and like he says, which I've heard, this isn't the first time I've heard this, that it controls termites. Stand behind that. Stand behind that. I dare you.

Yeah.

I dare you.

Your, your previous guest that I wasn't here for would just laugh. Yeah, right.

Yeah, no, I seriously, I mean, do it. Yeah, I, I'll own you in 10 years, right?

Right. Yeah, I mean, well, and, and part of me, part of me just— okay, again, Craig, not a pest control guy. Uh-huh. Um, I, I don't know much, I'll just say that. I, I don't think that termites live in insulation?

Okay, so one, there are some insulations. When you think about like the Pink Panther version of insulation, like that's their mascot or whatever, right? A lot of that's fiberglass, right? Okay. It does have some paper on it, but there are like some of the blown-in insulations are cellulose, cellulose, which is what termites eat.

Right. So if you've got— here, here's the thing. Most people are not putting cellulose in their house anymore.

No.

It's possible. It is still sold. It is still put in.

Yeah.

And, and you know why? It's because there are people out there that have only ever had cellulose and they want what they've only ever had. Sure. So it works. And it works, but it is not what fiberglass is.

No.

And the fiberglass blown-in insulation is the industry standard when it comes to blown-in insulation. So most people are not having this problem.

No.

With fiberglass because that's what putting in.

Okay. And again, this is, this is a national brand that we're dealing with.

Yes. Okay.

I'm not.

No.

Okay. Around here, there's no termites in your attic unless you have a massive leak or something else that's causing them to build a carton up.

And why is that? I think I know, but please tell me.

It's because of the kind of termite.

Yeah.

That's really, that's really all there is to it. There are 2 kinds of termites that you can get in your attic, and they are dampwood and drywoods, at least around here.

Yeah.

Those don't even— they, they're not here.

Right. At all.

Like, they're down in the Heights.

Right.

And they're the kind of termites that when you get them and if you have them really bad, that's when, that's when you have to like tent the house. Sure. And again, I don't even do that because why? Because that termite's not here.

But here's the other problem.

It's not worth me being in that business to even treat those termites because there's nothing to treat.

Right.

So putting, putting a termite-resistant insulation in your attic in this part of Texas doesn't even make sense. Just besides the fact that it doesn't even exist.

Doesn't happen. Well, but, but like, but that's part of the problem though, is that like, you, any, again, this is kind of where I was going with that comment that I made a minute ago about I don't know what I'm talking about, and obviously I don't.

Right.

My common sense tells me that termites are not trying to eat your insulation.

No.

Termites are trying to eat—

It's like the last thing they want to mess with.

Termites want to eat wood.

Yeah.

That is what they love to eat. They're really good at eating wood, and it's delicious to them.

Yeah.

So if they're in your attic, it's not the insulation that's going to keep them from eating your wood.

No. So it's not going to stop them from eating anything.

This is just common sense that I'm trying to put into the equation.

Well, it's okay, like-ish, but most people don't know doodah about termites. Sure.

I mean, that's a good point.

I mean, they just don't, and, and they shouldn't have to. because it's not something that hardly anybody really has to deal with.

Right.

Now, do they cause a lot of damage across the US every year? Billions.

Right.

Billions.

Yeah.

But it's because typically people neglect a problem or they don't know that they have a problem. I mean, there's all sorts of reasons.

Sure.

But, you know, I think it's like $2.8 billion worth of damage annually, which across the US—

That's not that much.

Not that much money.

No, it's not.

So yeah, it's a problem, but like, it's just not something people need to know a whole lot about because there's guys like me and other honest pest control companies out there that know perfectly well, and they see it every— I found some today, which again, it's weird to find some right now this time of year, but they were active. It's the end of summer, the beginning of fall. It's really dry. It's just a weird time to find termites, but I found them.

Okay.

'Cause I knew what I was looking for.

Right.

this spot on this person's home, they'd walked past that spot 1,000 times. Never would've seen them.

Yeah. So didn't know what they were looking for.

Yeah. But that's, that's why this stuff works.

Yeah.

Is because you're dealing with people that they have no interest in termites.

Well, they're preying on these people. That, that, that's the thing that maybe bothers me more than anything. They're preying on people because what I will tell you, again, limited knowledge, but I've had rats at my house before.

Mhmm.

Not my current one, but I've had them in previous homes. And the exclusionary process is super important.

It is.

I mean, if you have a problem, exclusion is important.

It's, it's not, it's not the first arrow that you pull from your quiver though.

Well, okay. Well, why?

Almost, almost hardly. Because, well, it, it depends on the situation. Right? I mean, like, if you, There's so many variables that go into it. I mean, like, could it be the first arrow you pull from your quiver? Could be, yeah, depending on the situation.

Okay.

But most of the time, the traditional, uh, treatments work, meaning a Victor snap trap is very effective.

Sure, those are great.

When they are placed properly.

Yeah.

You know, when they are loaded properly, when they're baited properly. And, and, and again, that's why there's so many variables involved with this. I mean, usually the first quiver that I'm pulling from, from the sack is traps.

Yeah, because you really want them to leave.

Yeah, you want them gone. And most people don't have an infestation. They get like 1 or 2, right? And they don't want it to become 20, right? And so you target the 1 or 2, get rid of those. Yeah, yeah. And that, that you don't need to do exclusion work. You need to see where they're— when, when you're doing traps, one of the worst things you could do in this, in that situation is exclusions, because you no longer have access to the paths that they were working on a regular basis, whereas it could have been really easy to kill them, right? And then do an exclusion if you really wanted to.

Sure.

Um, so, but like, it's, it's, it's identifying what you're dealing with, understanding their habits, and then, and then proceeding from there. Not just coming in with the, you have a massive infestation, we need to remove all the insulation and close up every single hole, and that's the only way that this thing is going to solved.

It's like, that's not the only way this is going to get solved, right?

I mean, and like, plus, like, she's 80 years old, right? Like, is, is it really that bad in the attic? And also, like, you're telling me that because the attic has rat feces and urine that is getting into the HVAC system, that tells me something's really wrong with the HVAC system?

Really bad.