Controversial New Spray Foam Laws and Roofing Licensing

This is episode number 319 of the Homeowner Show. Whether you're DIY or looking to hire, why are you laughing at me? We're here to help you find the best information and options for you and your home. My name is Kevin Hackett, and here with me is Quag Williams. Hello, hello, hello.

Welcome to the Homeowner Show. That was a little awkward, wasn't it?

DIY. Why? It's always late when we do this, y'all. You know, it is what it is.

Oh, well, why not?

You know what? There was a time when I had to read that.

That's right. It's been a few episodes at this point. It's been a minute. It's fine. Yeah, it's fine.

How's it going, man?

It's going good, man. Well, I mean, it's good. I'm exhausted. I've been chasing termites for like 2 weeks.

Yeah.

Um, this is, this is like, this is, this has been the worst termite season I can remember in 15 years.

That is not encouraging.

Um, so I mean, like, it's just like showing up like all over the place and like every, every conceivable way that I've ever found them in the past. Like I'm having to use those skills to find them all now. Um, yeah, I was in a guy's house today. Like the only reason I found them is cuz I found mud tubes on the inside of his house. Oh, in between 2 seams of like, uh, wooden— what do you call that stuff on the inside when it's like, you know, you know what I'm talking about? It's like thin wood, but you put it up on the walls.

Oh, like, um, uh, luan?

Oh, like, uh, I know what you're talking about, but like, I can't think of the word.

Yep, that stuff. Yeah, it's, um, like where it meets in the corner and there's like a—

yeah, there's like a piece of quarter.

Yeah, quarter round. It's, um, called the stuff.

Yep.

With the lines. Yep.

That's the stuff. Why are we so dumb right now?

Is it beadboard? No, that's wainscoting or beadboard.

It's like beadboard, but wainscot.

It's not even that. No, it's, it's paneling.

Paneling.

Wood paneling.

We'll go with wood paneling. Yeah, that's exactly— there was wood paneling on the wall and he had quarter round in the corner and the tubing was coming up from behind the quarter round and like, but like up in the ceiling. Really? And I just happened to look up and I was like, that's weird. And I was like, I better go look outside. And it was, they were going in through, uh, like just a small, they didn't even, 'cause usually what termites will do is they'll come up on a foundation and they'll go up into like a weep hole in the brick.

Yeah.

Or something like that. Or they'll go up behind siding to get into the frame or whatever that, this had like a small crack in the foundation and they were going into the crack in the foundation. And what I figured out later on is like, this was an addition to a house. And so they went in through the crack and then found the other crack inside and got up through that way. Uh, another one that I did earlier this week was, uh, you've seen houses around here, uh, foundations crack all the time.

Oh yeah.

You know, and it's all the time. Yeah. Especially like if you're up in like Brazos Valley, like this.

Yeah. I mean, it can even be done correctly and still crack. And it'll crack. You know?

Um, but like around here, it's not uncommon to see like the corner piece of the foundation just completely crack off.

Yep.

And this house, similar situation. They started seeing like mud tubes show up on the Inside of the sheetrock, um, which is weird because usually like termites will eat like right up to the paint and then stop.

Oh, okay.

But I think there was places that had, um, wallpaper.

Oh.

And so they kept coming and, uh, and I was like, well, that's weird. And I went outside and I couldn't find 'em. And I was like, well, there's a small like chunk cracked off on the foundation, but like the piece had never come off.

Oh, so they were—

And, and, and then, but like the crack in the, in the foundation went below grade.

Mm-hmm.

Into the dirt.

Wow.

And so I had to, I just had to pull the piece off. And when I pulled the piece off, I was like, oh, there they are. Oh, interesting. You know, they're just hiding behind there.

So it's a wood tube, huh? What you— no, mud tube.

You call it a mud tube.

Mud tube.

Mud tube.

What is a— tell, explain what people— I know what it is. Explain to people what a mud tube is.

Um, I mean, I mean, it's kind of hard. Termites and fire ants both build them, but like termites, I mean, it's just like a— it looks like dirt that's just almost looks like a vein coming up out of the ground on the side of the foundation.

Like if you were to build, like if you were to have an old school ant farm.

Yes.

It looks like an ant farm.

Yeah, it looks like the tubes that ants build in ant farms when you look at them through the glass. Yeah.

So if you, if you ever see a picture that looks like almost like weird petrified wood type of look. And it's probably termites.

Yeah. I mean, like, if you were to, like, if you were to back out, like, like zoom out 100x, it would kind of look— it would almost look like the— your brain.

Okay.

You know, like if you looked at all of them together is what I mean. And you could just isolate the tubes. It would look something like— or like the veins in your leg, or it would look something like that. Sure. Uh, which it's weird how like nature mimics biology, the internal biology.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so, but cool stuff.

Yeah.

Anyway, been dealing with that for, man, 2 or 3 weeks now.

Wow.

So I'm doing 3 of them tomorrow. Like I'm, I'm doing treatments for 3 tomorrow.

Goodness.

Um, and one of, one of them that I'm doing tomorrow, the house is less than a year old.

Oh, wow.

So, and I didn't, I didn't realize this, even like custom homes and I was talking to a, like a, I can't say names. I was talking to a major builder.

Okay.

Here in Texas, like building massive homes. Mm-hmm. And also they've told me that they're pivoting away from luxury homes. Like no one's doing luxury homes right now. Oh, really?

Nobody. Why?

Because nobody can afford 'em.

Yeah. It's just so expensive.

Um, and he goes, we're focusing on economic homes. And I said, what are you guys doing for pretreats? He goes, oh dude, we're not doing pretreats. And I was like, what?

Why?

And he goes, we don't have to.

Don't have to.

Yeah. And I was like, interesting. Okay.

Yeah.

And so that's, that's one of the ways that they're saving money.

Interesting.

On these constructions. And I didn't, I'm not familiar with the laws on that. I mean, for years I thought it was mandatory. Um, which is funny enough, that's what we're talking about this episode is some new laws that are coming down the pipeline, but, um, that homeowners need to be aware of.

Interesting.

Um, but this is, this is, this is a big one because most people I mean, young people, millennials, Gen Z, whatever the generation is that's, you know, supposed to be buying houses that isn't, um, are being taught about home buying from their parents.

Right.

You know, and I can promise you all of their parents are telling them, well, if you go buy a new home, all those homes are pretreated.

Sure.

Because that's the way it's always been done.

Yeah.

It's not being done anymore.

So what does it cost in your, like, in your estimation? to pretreat a home?

It depends.

Okay.

Because what I mean, in, in our industry, there's, in the past there was like 1, maybe 2 companies doing it.

Okay.

And because they had figured out how to batch it and make it super cheap.

Sure.

So they were knocking out what, you know, and, and they're, they're doing it in bulk so they could do it a lot cheaper than like smaller companies could do it. So they're, you know, they'll go into like a, uh, you know, a 2,000, 5,000 home neighborhood or And, and, and really what they're doing is they're working with the builder.

Right. Of course.

And so like, you can have a neighborhood with like 6 different builders.

Mm-hmm. You know, and, but they're working with the neighborhood and they're working with the builder, whatever.

Yeah. So it, it, it varies. I mean, that's, that's roundabout way of saying that. But I would guess right now, if one of those guys were to jump in, they would be knocking it out for $200 to $300 a lot.

See, I, that's, I would, I was thinking $500.

Uh-huh.

Um, which sounds like, Someone who's not batching it could probably do it for $500.

Right.

Like, I don't know if you even do that, but you might come in and say, hey, I can do it for $500, whatever.

So, like, I'll get called in by a custom builder who wants to do it for, like, a 10,000 to 12,000 square foot home.

Okay.

And that's a totally different ballgame.

It'd be, yeah.

And, and I can do it now without putting any chemical in the ground.

Okay.

So it, it's like, you know, there's different ways of doing it. But, like, mine's gonna be way more expensive.

Sure. And, but I'm even thinking, like, even if you spent $1,500, $2,000, whatever, to get it done. I'm— it's worth it. It— I mean, it's—

unless you're—

unless you're doing— I mean, most people should be doing their quarterlies anyway, right?

Like, yes. But, and this, this is going to sound weird, um, I actually don't think it's worth it.

Oh, okay.

I don't, because I can tell you every single house, just about every single house, because most houses that I'm treating for termites were built before 1985.

Okay, that's fair, right?

And all of those were pretreated.

Mm-hmm.

Let me tell you the number of houses that I've treated for termites that were pretreated.

All of them. All of them.

So like, it doesn't stop anything.

Delays it.

Yeah.

If it— are those people also doing quarterlies or not? Uh, I mean, I know that that is not a— that is not like a— it's not a stopgap. It's not a— no.

Yeah. Um, so 50/50.

Okay. So just, I mean, the biggest thing, and you actually did a reel about it today, the biggest thing that I would say is just keep an eye out on your property. Like if you're not walking your property, like walking around your house every week, right? You should at least once a week walk around your house and just get some vitamin D.

Just, yeah.

And just, just take a look. Just inspect. I mean, I'll tell you what's crazy right now is fire ants. They're all over the place.

Oh yeah, 'cause we've had a lot of late spring rain that, and that just draws 'em up to the surface.

Right, so I mean, like, especially if you've got kids or if you got pets or anything, like, you oughta, you oughta be checking on that kind of stuff and just, you know, looking. There's wasps everywhere right now. Just start spotting those things.

Right.

And if you see anything that looks a little weird, call someone and just say, can you, and, and, and I appreciate what you said, just send me a text and like, yeah, take a picture, show me a picture and I'll let you know, is that dangerous or not? And And half the time it's like, oh, that's a swarm. It's not a big deal. Just watch it. Make sure they leave. Right.

You know, I, oh, there was, there was one I stopped at today. It was actually an office building. They had swarmers inside the building.

Oh yeah.

And which, I mean, like, that's a, that's a big, like, danger Will Robinson.

Uh, yeah.

Like, you know, we need to get somebody on this immediately. So I, I get there and sure enough, there's a bunch of swarmers on the inside of the building.

Ugh.

And I start poking around and all of them are on one wall. Um, and buy windows. And so I start looking around and I was, I was actually training the guy. So it was really awesome. Um, I was like, oh, this is, there's nothing wrong here. This is perfectly fine. And he's like, what are you talking about? There's swarmers all over the inside. I said, yeah, look on the outside on the windowsill. I was like, what do you see? And he goes, there's a pile of wings. And I said, yeah, because they all landed outside, which means they didn't come from inside.

Right.

They swarmed from outside. landed on that windowsill, and then came in through the window because the window's not sealed properly.

Right.

So, and now we know that these windows are not keeping bugs out. Um, and so we can, we can assure the building owner, uh, that everything's gonna be fine.

Sure.

All we gotta do is just spray the wall where these guys walked in so they don't set up a new colony inside, which they weren't gonna. The HVAC system was gonna whack 'em. Um, HVAC systems are great at killing bugs.

Sure.

And so just having somebody that's willing to be a little curious and just poke around a little bit.

Right.

I mean, we were doing it all day today because today was just a nightmare. I mean, the neighborhood I was in, it looked like it was snowing. There were so many swarmers and not just one street, every street I went on, it was just like, and people were coming outside Freaking out.

Well, and it's gonna get worse over the next week. I mean, you got, we got a ton of rain.

Yeah.

That's gonna just— Yeah.

It's supposed to rain again on Wednesday.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it could rain tomorrow and, and it's, but like yesterday at my house, and again, who knows if my gauge is right, but if my gauge is right, we got 2 and a quarter inches yesterday. Yeah.

It was a bunch. It was a heavy rain.

It came, came hard and fast and, you know, it is what it is.

So yeah.

Well, listen, uh, we, we gotta start off with, uh, some, you know, sponsors.

Give 'em some love.

All right, let's start off with Lone Star Appliance Repair. Um, guys, if, uh, if you are in the market for a new appliance, my suggestion before you do that is to consider whether or not your other appliance can be repaired, fixed, overhauled, cleaned. We actually had a really interesting scenario the other day at my house. So we were, uh, my, my wife and I had a, a Broadway show we went to go see, and my mother-in-law was keeping our kids.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, my wife was like, hey, it's been a busy week. Do you mind just throwing some stuff in the la— in the laundry? She's like, sure. So she messaged us and she goes, uh, your washing machine won't let me wash your clothes. I was like, what are you talking about? And she goes, uh, it says it has to be cleaned first. Oh, so So our washing machine has a setting on it that whenever it gets to a certain number of cycles, it will not wash again until you throw one of the cleaning tablets in it to actually clean it, which it does a decent job of.

Very curious how it even senses that.

It's just a number of cycles. That's all it is.

Interesting.

And so—

Oh, it counts. That's easy. Okay.

Yeah. So my mother-in-law's, I've never heard of that. And I was like, well, these new high efficient, you've never had a high efficiency washing machine. And I said, the new ones, they, they require cleaning, uh, just because of the way they work. And she was like, yeah, I've never, I've never heard of that before. And I said, you probably also don't know that most washing machines need a regular maintenance plan on them.

Mm-hmm.

And that there are maintenance plans that Lone Star Appliance Repair offers. So if you're in the market for any of those things, Then give them a call. They are a great company to work with. 936-647-2364. And I'm gonna let you handle the next one, which is True Texas Solar and Roofing.

Look, there's been a lot of ugliness going on around solar lately. I, I can think of one post right, right now that was circulating Facebook where talking about somebody that was taken advantage of. and screwed on a home sale where, you know, they weren't able to sell the house because they owed so much on their solar. And so much of this just comes from, you know, misinformation and honest— I mean, just lies.

Right.

And thievery on the part of some of these dishonest companies, which is why we're excited to actually represent an honest one that, you know, makes its stamp in the community by educating and being honest and, and doing what's right by, by people. And, and, and honestly talking some people out of getting solar because it's not a good fit for them.

Yeah. I was talking to Josh about this just the other day. Um, I, I, I had to call him about something else and he and I were chatting and I was like, hey, what about that? I saw, I said, I saw the post that was put up by a realtor in our area. And, um, I was about to, to comment, you know, Hey, Josh, what do you think about this? Who's the owner of True Texas Solar.

He was already on it.

And, and he had already put this whole thing on there. And, and I was like, yeah, see, that's the thing is, like, not everybody are scumbags out there.

Yeah.

So, and that's one of the reasons we started this show to begin with was to, to help inform you, the listeners, of really good people that are out there, how not to get scammed out of the things you're doing. And Josh and his team over at True Texas Solar and Roofing, They're doing things really, really well. So, and here's the other thing, we talk about solar with them all the time. They have a top-notch roofing, uh, team as well. Yeah.

And they're, they're getting more into the solar shingles from what I, what I, what I've heard.

Sure.

Yeah.

And so if, you know, if you're looking for a new roof, uh, you know, they can help you with that even if you don't need solar. And here's the thing, they're not gonna try to sell you on solar if you need a new roof.

Right.

Okay. If all you need is a new roof and you just need help with doing that, They, they would love to help you.

They get you patched up.

They absolutely will. So give them a call, 936-286-8325. And now we've got our newest sponsor, which is Crazy Clean.

Crazy Clean.

Crazy Clean is a super amazing product. Uh, we were, uh, fortunate to have them on our show not too long ago. Um, it's, uh, it's a real simple little device. It's a— it looks kind of like a cone. and you just put it in your toilet tank.

Yep.

And there's no chemicals in it. It's not gonna turn your water blue or anything like that. It's just a— it's this little cone that has magnets in it, and, uh, it chemically, uh, changes your, uh, your water through magnets rather than actual chemicals.

So, um, it, it It's a, it's a game changer, man. And I love simple technology that changes people's lives. Uh, because, you know, to me, like, if you're, if you're a clean and tidy kind of person, one of the, like, ugliest things that you can have going on for your house when your guests come over is to have just an ugly ring in the toilet.

Yeah.

Because people think that there's other things going on, um, even though it's not. You could just have hard water.

You could, you could—

I mean, there could be all sorts of things going on. But that's what's beautiful about this is it's so simple. You put it in, you forget about it, and it lasts for 10 years.

Yeah, at least. And the guy, the guy that was— I mean, the owner Steve, he was like, look, we know it lasts for 10 years.

Yeah, that's why they guarantee it for 10 years.

It will probably last. Yeah, it'll probably last for longer than that.

Right.

And I'll tell you, um, it's not that you'll never have to clean your toilet again, it's that you're never going to get water stains.

Yeah.

Which is, which is a huge problem for many, many people because hard water is a thing. And so you know, rather than going in and scrubbing your toilet. That's the biggest thing. You're never gonna have to scrub your toilet again.

Yeah.

You may have to, you know, just wipe it down, but you don't even have to use chemicals to do that. You don't have to go in with Clorox or, uh, you know, anything like that to clean your toilet again. You can literally just go in with a, with a rag or anything and just wipe it and it will come clean.

So I tell you, I've been, I've been selling these things to, uh, home cleaning companies.

Oh yeah.

So because the, I'll just like, my wife and I are super busy people. Like we, we both, you know, have multiple jobs and businesses and things like that going on in our lives and cleaning, finding time to clean the house is just ridiculous. So we hire somebody to, to do it. Um, you know, and, and they do a great job, but they love cleaning our house now because they don't have to spend as much time cleaning the toilet. Sure. And so I've been, I've been telling home cleaning companies like, look, Buy 'em for your customers.

Sure.

Add it to your cost and just put it in the toilet.

Yeah.

It's gonna save time on the ground for your, your, your people cleaning.

Yep. And, and, and your customers are gonna love it. Oh yeah. Because it really does look better. I mean, it, it, it is a game changer. So, uh, they're, they're pretty inexpensive. They're about $30 a pop. You can buy 'em in bulk, uh, to get all of your, um, discount for 4 right now. Discount for 4. You can get all of 'em, you know, all of, uh, your bathrooms taken care of. Uh, it's really easy to get a hold of them. It's Krazy Kleen with 2 K's, krazykleen.com. Get yours today, and we're glad to have them as a sponsor, so give them some love.

Yeah, so we got, we got 2 pretty cool stories. I mean, not cool stories, um, just interesting stories that are very Texas-specific. And but I, I think even guys like our, our friend Eric G is going to be interested by this one. Let's start with this one because I think this one hit close to home for me because they're talking about, and this is, which one is this? House Bill 3314, Texas House Bill 3314 to be specific.

Okay.

And it is relating to the energy efficiencies for residential construction. So they're talking about changing the law for residential construction.

All right.

And I mean, the, I think the long and short of it is I think they're gonna, they're trying to make it as difficult as possible to put foam insulation in residential houses.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and so I, there's, there's, there's 2 sides to this, obviously.

Sure.

You know, I, and I, one, like, I, I never think it's a good idea to try and tell Texans what they can and can't do with their own property.

Doesn't go well most of the time.

Um, So, I mean, you know, if you're going in and buying a house and that was the way it is, you made the decision to do it that way. But like, if you're telling them how they can build a house, you know, obviously there's, there's already building standards in place.

Sure.

Um, but there's a lot of good press around foam insulation.

Well, yeah. I mean, this stuff is unbelievable. Right.

I mean, it is efficiency.

It is so efficient and it's a forever product. It doesn't break down. It doesn't go away. If you put spray foam in your home on year 1, on year 40, where other people have already, like, replaced their, you know, their blown-in insulation multiple times, you've never replaced it.

Right.

You know?

I mean, just, just to back up on something that you said, whether or not it breaks down or not, as long as it's not exposed to UV.

Of course. I mean, there are reasons that it could.

And then I'll also add the caveat, as long as there's not moisture and carpenter ants.

Okay, there's lots of reasons why it could break down, but if you take care of your home, if it's— and you do it— if it was, you know, installed correctly, if your home was built correctly, you know, there are reasons why it shouldn't— you should never have that issue.

100%. But I will tell you, if carpenter ants get into it, good luck.

Well, I'm—

yeah, good luck.

Yeah, well, because those things are gonna burrow through everything. Yep. And it's just gonna make it—

Oh, it's like candy. I don't know what— I don't know what it was like. There was a commercial building that was completely spray foamed and they, those carpenter ants just gutted it. Ugh. I found, yeah. I mean, just completely decimated the foam insulation. Yeah. We ended up having to scrape it all out just to even find them.

Goodness.

Um, so anyway, I mean, like, that's, but that's, it's a, that's such a fringe thing. But like, I just want people to know that, like, I don't want people yelling at us in the comments, you morons, you said it wouldn't. And it's like, okay. Yeah. There's extenuating circumstances and things like that.

Few and far between. Yes.

So there's that. Like, it's an incredible product. You can do amazing things. We've also, we've spent a lot of time talking about like the difference between like closed cell foam, open cell foam, and all this kind of stuff. And here's the thing. I read the bill. It's very confusing.

Of course it is.

And it actually doesn't even mention foam.

Oh, is it just the product that it's made with? Is that what it is? No, no, no.

Let me, okay. Like, like, like, like, in this, this is Section C. If insulation is installed below the roof deck and the exposed portion of the roof rafters is not already covered by air impermeable insulation—

Air impermeable foam. Wow. Yes.

Air impermeable insulation is foam.

Yes. Right.

So they're, they put all this language around it so that it, like, we can't get in there and actually understand what's going on unless— because it starts talking about, like, R-values And, zone 1, zone 2, zone 3, zone 4, like, all these different things. But, like, at the end of the day, what they're trying to say is we wanna get rid of spray foam as an industry standard for residential. Now what my friend Steve pointed out to me is a lot of this is coming from the people that manufacture standard insulation.

Well, that's what I was about to ask. I mean, there, there's, Okay. With every action, there's a reaction, and there, there's always a reason that something happens.

Uh-huh.

So I was gonna ask, what do we know? And, and that's, that's the thing is, is because of how much this is catching on, and I, I, you know, I talked to— we, we, you and I talked to Steve a lot.

Yep.

And, and Steve, uh, you know, guys, look, if, if you want insulation put in your home, call Steve Spoon with Victory Insulation. He's not even sponsoring us, but I'll tell you right now, He's the best.

I just— he knows what he's talking about.

He is. He's— I've never, ever, ever come across an insulation expert like him. He, he is very well studied. He knows exactly what he's talking about, and he will tell you what you need and what you don't need. And he's not out to make money off of you. He will answer your questions without taking your money first. Right. So really great guy. But, you know, you've got him and, and, and so many of these insulation guys that will tell you, like, spray foam is great. Now, there are situations where it's not, and you've got to make sure that you, you retrofit your home if you're going to add spray foam and not replace it with something that you've already had, if it's blown in or something

like that. But that being said, I can only imagine that these blown-in people that are manufacturing cellulose and, and fiberglass insulation are going, oh, wait, hold the phone. Yeah, no, we don't want that. Even though it's so much more expensive, um, the, the longevity of it and the energy efficiency of it is so much better that it's still worth it for a lot of people. If you're going to own your home for a long time, why would you put in, uh, blown-in when you can put in spray foam and, and not deal with it again?

Right.

You know, But I, I, I assumed that that was probably what it was, but now we know.

Now we know. So like, so that's part of it. Um, the, the other part, I, and I think, I think people need to recognize this. I, I think sometimes with bills like this, you're treating the symptom rather than the problem.

Mm-hmm. Right.

And, and so like, I think spray foam is the symptom of a bigger problem. And, and that problem is And, and we can talk about this more when we get in the roofing side of stuff because we're talking about licensing, but we have a product that's being managed by HVAC companies that are licensed.

Yeah.

That aren't treating it properly.

Okay.

Right? And, and so, and, and I, I, I hate to, I hate to even put it this way, but like you, because I, I think there's a problem when we have licensed HVAC techs that don't understand how foam works on new construction.

Dude, I'm telling you that we, I mean, if you don't believe us, go back and listen to our ex— our episode where we talked about my mother-in-law's house.

Right.

Because we built a house for my mother-in-law on our property and we went through this exact same problem where the HVAC people don't know what they're doing and they not only recommended but convinced her to go a certain route with her air conditioning system, and she had to turn around and spend a whole lot more money, and it's still dissatisfied. It's better than it was, but she's still dissatisfied with what she's got. And she has spray foam in her home, and it— the, the contractor just didn't know what they were doing. So the HVAC contractor, let's be clear. Yeah, not that— no, the spray foam guys knew exactly what they were doing. Uh, the, the HVAC guys were the were the morons that didn't know what they were

doing. And so I will tell you right now, if you are getting a new HVAC system, one of the— and, and you ever think either you have or you ever think about getting spray foam, start asking questions early.

Right.

Like, what do you know about spray foam insulation and HVAC systems specifically? And if they can't give you very detailed information, run.

Yeah.

Go find someone else.

Well, and, and one of the things that I think is happening You know, when, when you have individuals that try and GC, like, their own home build, you know, you start running the numbers on what things are gonna cost.

Of course.

And, and HVAC can be one of the most expensive things. And so, like, if you're looking at the difference between, you know, I, I don't know, a $20,000 install versus, like, a $35,000 install.

Right.

A lot of times people don't stop and ask the question, hey, why is there a $15,000 difference between yours and this guy's?

Right.

You know, or, you know, if you're getting like 3 bids and you're getting like 3 vastly different numbers, like, why is, why is that the case?

Right.

Instead of just going, ah, you guys are a bunch of jackasses. I'm gonna go with the lowest one.

Yeah.

Because clearly the other 2 are trying to rip me off.

Yeah. I mean, if it, if it seems unreasonable, act like it's unreasonable in a smart way. Or don't just turn around and go, well, that guy's out. He's way too expensive. Ask why.

Right.

Why are you more expensive? And some people will tell you, I'm just more expensive.

Yeah.

Okay, then maybe I don't use your quote.

Sure.

But if it's, I'm more expensive because I do it this way for these reasons, and if you go with a lower bid, you're gonna deal with these issues. Okay, now you go back to the other guy. This is what this guy's telling me. Counter, counter, you know, argue this. And, and, and if they can't, then, you know, you've got your answer. But again, if it seems unreasonable, then don't just take it for like their word.

Right.

You know, ask questions.

Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that we're finding is like they're, you know, completely encapsulating these attics or, or just, and, and they're, or they're doing the walls and then the roof decking with the spray foam.

Mm-hmm.

And then, but they're not putting a send and return in the attic.

Right.

And, and it's, it's creating mold farms.

Yeah.

In these people's homes. I mean, it, it, and I, I know of a couple that have had to completely move out of their homes. Yeah. Because they have to gut them now. Well, take them, take them down to the studs essentially to even remediate some of this problem.

Yeah. Because it doesn't make sense. If you are a person who is of, you know, a certain age, you, you have never had the option for spray foam in a traditional home because it, it's not, It, it's a much newer product.

Mhmm.

And so here's what the HVAC guy's gonna tell you. We gotta put a send and return, and they're gonna go, what does that mean? And he's gonna go, well, you gotta air condition your attic. And they're like, well, that's stupid.

Right.

I'm never gonna air condition my— are you kidding me? All the wasted money, cold air that's gonna go up into my attic, you moron. What are you— how— what did you smoke to get into HVAC school? Right?

Yep.

And he's gonna go, I actually know what I'm talking about.

Yeah.

And, and it's going to lower your bills. And oh, by the way, you're gonna have an air, air-conditioned attic.

You can actually get up there and you can actually work.

Or, or if you wanna store stuff up there, you can store stuff up there. Like, there's so many reasons that this is a good thing. But you have to understand what happens. And one of the, one of the best analogies that, that Steve used that I just, I just loved. He's like, look, look, go in and, uh, get a Yeti cooler, which are— we know they're the best. Any, any, you know, foam-insulated cooler, so much better. So take a Yeti cooler and fill it halfway full of ice and close the lid and let it sit there for 5 days. You're gonna open it up and find what?

Ice. Ice.

because it's still cold in there. Now go do the very same thing, put the very same amount of ice in it, but put a layer above it, like a, like even a piece of cardboard, something just above it. So now you've got a barrier and you've got 2 different zones. Now you've got a layer of air covered and then a layer of ice. You come back after a day and the ice will be melted.

Yeah.

And, and you go, well, that, that doesn't make any sense. And no, it makes perfect sense because of heat transfer.

Yeah.

And if you don't understand heat transfer, then you're not gonna understand why you have to have a send and return in an attic for spray foam. So again, you're getting Craig and me on our high horse on this. Not because, not because we, you know, are so much more intelligent than everybody else, but I have personally been through this.

Yeah.

And Craig has learned from it. And Steve the whole time is going, yeah, Kevin, if you would've just listened to me to begin with. But I wasn't the one paying for the house.

So yeah. I mean, this, this is very reminiscent of like a pharmaceutical company telling us like which drugs should be banned when they manufacture a certain drug.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like, it's like, no, only use ours. It's the only one that should be approved. Um, all the other ones are bad.

Yep. You know, that's exactly what it's like. No, I mean, they're this like, yes, that's exactly what it's like. And we all get fired up about that. Yep.

You know, and especially you, you mentioned it, like, like, for, for these guys to be sitting in front of like the Texas House and being like, we are like completely unbiased, right, and have no agenda whatsoever, it's like bullcrap, dude.

Yeah.

And because like, we watch the speech and he's like, yeah, in fact, some of our members actually manufacture a little foam.

Yeah.

And it's like, well, did you know that foam's not the only thing that's used for insula— I mean, it's like not only used for insulation, it's like you use it Like, one of my clients actually manufactures foam for roof adhesive.

Yeah, sure.

I mean, like, that's a— and they make gobs of it.

Sure.

Like, there's, there's many uses for foam.

I mean, just— you can literally go to the store and buy this stuff called gap filler.

Yep.

What do you think it is?

Well, I mean, it's the same thing. It's, it's the same thing. I mean, that stuff can technically be used for insulation. I wouldn't recommend it.

No, but you could.

You could.

Yeah. I mean, if you were like For example, I know some crazy people that have cut open, uh, like an old Igloo cooler and put gap filler.

Oh nice.

Like they, they took out the foam that's in there and like put— I say foam, it's like that white stuff, right? It's like terrible insulation. Took it out, put gap filler in it, and they're like, look, we got a makeshift Yeti.

It's like, no, you got a piece of junk, but it probably worked better than the Igloo. It worked a lot better.

And I'm like, Oh, now you— now look who's the idiot. It's me.

Well, since, since you brought it up with the gap filler, I'm gonna get on like my little pedestal here. Okay. It really pisses me off when I go to the store. And so I, I, I understand the difference between like the big gap filler and the smaller gap filler. Like this is like the, the 1 inch to the 3 inch. Yes. That makes sense to me.

Yes.

But like when it's like fire retardant and pest preventative, it's like, There's nothing different in the can. No, you're— it's just a different use that you're saying it should be applied for. There's no pesticides in that foam.

No.

Like, I've read the can. There's nothing in there. No. That's going to prevent any bug.

I'll tell you what there is in there. Added cost.

Yeah, that's it.

It's marked up for nothing.

For marketing and for labeling.

That's right.

And for you, the sucker that's buying it.

That's right.

Like, I mean, and if I'm wrong, reach out to me, foam, because I've read the can. There's nothing different between that can and that can. Yeah. I'm going to ask ChatGPT. Do it.

I will. All right. Well, that's not the only—

No. So we've, we've also got HB 3344. And I saw this going, making the rounds. Well, real quick, HB 3314. This one is a little bit more like time sensitive because if it passes, and I haven't heard that it has, it will take effect on September of this year.

Okay.

September 1st. So that's not that long. I mean, no, it's what, 5 months away? Yeah, it's, well, less than 5 months away.

Right.

4, 4 months away.

Yeah. Almost.

Yeah. Um, so that one's coming up pretty quick if it passes. So that, and that could really change a lot of people's businesses.

Okay.

Um, so anyway, we've got, uh, HB 3344, uh, which is essentially a, a, a bill that's going to create a licensure for roofers in Texas.

Mm-hmm.

So now it doesn't change what, you know, drives Eric G up the wall, which is like GCs can still be unlicensed.

Right.

Which are, you know, general contractors for you who's not following. But roofer— roofing has been the Wild West in, of course, in the state for years.

I mean, how, how many times have we said on this show any, you know, Joe with a hammer can put a, put a roof on. My son could put a roof on. Your son could get up and, you know, put a roof on.

Yep.

Yep.

And, and so I, I understand the argument.

Mm-hmm.

So you're, you actually have a lot of Texas roofing companies that are lobbying for this.

Sure. And, but, but what kind of Texas companies?

Well, so it depends on their reason. Okay. Right? So one, it, it's going, depending on the licensing process and, and the agency and, and the requirements that they're gonna, it's, it's inevitably gonna be more cost prohibitive for larger companies.

Yeah.

Right. So they're gonna be able to endure this more quickly than the smaller mom-and-pop roofing companies.

Right.

So the thing that it's trying to address is the storm chasers that come in from out of state.

Yeah.

Anytime there's a hurricane or a natural disaster, a fire, what, like, whatever, tornadoes in Dallas, all, all those things.

Right.

All those things. And which is a big problem.

Sure. Of course it is.

You know, and I don't know that I have a big problem with that.

Yeah. Right.

I really don't.

Sure.

I, you know, I, I'm, I'm more of a buyer beware kind of a guy. You know, if, if, if you, you know, if you hire a guy without doing any due diligence on something as expensive as a roof, and then you lose your butt because they haul it back to Louisiana before you have a chance to catch them. Yeah.

Whose fault is that?

You know, now when it, when it comes to like, there's, there's situations where I, I feel differently about that for sure. Yeah, but it— in the aggregate, yeah, I'm like, well, because those guys are scum anyway, right?

Many of them are like— I say that is really harsh. Many of those guys though, they're coming to just take the shirt off your back.

Yep.

Because here's the thing, they're going to leave and they don't care about any ramifications because they're not— you're not going to be able to get a hold of them again, right? And that's That's a problem no matter what. So the point that I hear you saying that we would both agree on is just don't hire the, you know, whatever comes along.

Yeah.

Yeah. Just, just, you know, just because someone comes to your door and says, oh, we're doing 3 houses on this, on this road, we can probably get your roof replaced. Uh, okay. Let's talk about it.

Right.

I'm fine if you talk about it, But research, go actually talk to those other people, get their information, look them up, do a little due diligence. And oh, by the way, get multiple bids.

Yeah.

You know, and, and do your due diligence.

The, the issue I'm having, and I, I, I think, I think a lot of Texas roofers are actually being smart.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't, I don't begrudge them for trying to do this at all. Um, there's, there's a lot of benefits to, to being licensed. Uh, and, and being able to show that license, uh, to a lot of people. But the, the, the problem is, man, I don't even know how to like articulate it right.

Careful, careful.

The, the, the prob— one of the big problems with licenses is then you, then you bring the state into the equation. And the state is not great at checking up on stuff.

Oh, yeah.

And the other thing, the other thing is— But why?

Let's, let's, let's— I mean, look, I'm not going to—

For the same reason, like we were talking to Mark Ruffin, like they're, they're, you know, they're putting requirements on school districts without funding them. It's the same thing.

It's the same thing.

They're putting, they're putting rules and laws in place that they don't have the staff to actually regulate.

That's it. They, they don't have the ability to check up on it.

Yeah. So as, so if you're an honorable person, you're following the rules.

Right.

Whereas there's other companies out there that are licensed.

Mhmm.

That aren't following the rules. Right. But no one's doing anything about it to stop them. And so they have an unfair advantage because they're unethical. Right. So the other problem is, is that these roofing companies are recognizing, just like you and I have been talking about, is that insurance is about to change the game on roofs.

Yep. Right?

And, and so that's gonna make it even more difficult for honest roofing companies to get a closed deal on a roof because homeowners are gonna be incentivized to go with the cheapest deal rather than the most researched deal and reasonable offer because now they're having to finance these things most likely because most people don't have $10,000 to $15,000 laying around to replace the roof. And, and so they're gonna go with the cheaper deal and then get screwed by the guy who's willing to come in from out of town, and not be licensed.

Mm-hmm.

And then, and then again, run back to Oklahoma.

Right.

Before they have a chance to do anything about it.

Yep.

And so there's all these issues going on. And so like, I don't begrudge these roofing companies for saying like, hey, like we need a fighting chance here.

Sure.

In order to survive in our own state. When you guys, you guys are creating this Wild West situation and you're taking away like our biggest source of income, which are the insurance companies.

Right.

You know, and so now we're having to like redirect our marketing, redirect. They're gonna have to set up, you know, ways to finance these roofies, roofies, roofs.

Um, not roofies.

Roofies.

Yeah. That's a whole different—

can't finance those. You gotta pay cash. Yeah.

Right.

Um, but like, you know, there, there's this whole ecosystem that's just getting shook.

Sure.

In Texas right now. And I don't, I think they're trying to do the best that they can. for their own industry. And I don't, I don't know that it's the right way to do it. I don't. I mean, it could be because here's what's crazy.

You talk to a guy like Eric G, good friend of ours, shout out to Eric. Uh, and he's going, guys, you want the license. The license is good. It actually helps.

I think you do. I think you do in Oregon. I think you do in Oregon.

But that's what I was gonna say. But I think you have to put everything into context and you have to put everything into an understanding of our system isn't built to sustain licensures in Texas. Yeah. It's just not.

Now, it's not, it's not as much of a bureaucratic state. No. As Oregon or California.

It's not.

Or New York or, or any of the, like, and, and so like you can say that it's an advantage because these have been like democratically run states for a long time and they're willing to build the bureaucracy to have the infrastructure for these kinds of systems.

Mm-hmm.

Well, like, okay, we're just not.

No.

And so, like, what happens when you introduce a, you know, a, an, an imposition on, on business owners and operators without a bureaucracy with any teeth to do anything about it?

Right.

And, and, like, don't take my word for it. I mean, talk to, I mean, like, look, we just got done talking about air conditioning.

Right.

You wanna talk about an industry, like, a, a, a bureaucratic system in Texas that doesn't really have a whole lot of teeth to check on these guys. Sure. I'm not saying that they don't have to go through these, these tests and regulations and stuff. I've talked to some guys in the air conditioning business, like, how, how often are you checked?

Right.

You know?

Right. Not often.

I, I, I'm not saying they are. I'm not saying they're not.

I'm just saying ask 'em. Yep.

You know, because it, and I'll, I'll tell you in mine, like, we don't get checked that often. Right. And it's because there's too many of us and not enough of them.

Yep.

Which, and I'll tell you how this plays out in my business. And this is, you know, it's, it's not a complaint. It's just the way it is, is my biggest competitor are, are not other pest control companies.

Mm-hmm.

My biggest competitor is landscaping businesses that don't have licenses that carry around sacks of, you know, diazinon.

Yeah.

To treat fire ants and backpack sprayers with God knows who's, what's in it.

Yep.

Spraying people's lawns.

Yep.

You know?

Yep.

And, and like, there's nothing I can do about it.

Nope.

And, and, and when I go to my representatives about that and I tell them like, what do I do? And they say, report them.

Right.

To, to you?

Right.

Like, they're not even part of our department.

Yep.

And they're like, well, if we know, if we know who they are, we might be able to go find them. And I'm like, I don't even know who they are.

Right.

Like, I can take a picture.

Right.

But like, then you're just going off my word that I saw them do this.

Uh-huh.

And, and like, I, I know nothing's gonna happen.

Sure.

So why do—

But they're, but they're gonna regulate that too before too long. And so that's, but that's, I, I, I guess the point is, in all of these things, what you as a home— here's, here's where the rubber meets the road for you as a homeowner. And we, we can get on our high horses pretty easily about this kind of stuff. And we could bring in roofers and we could bring in, you know, Steve or other, you know, insulation guys, and we can talk about all this. But truly, truly, truly do your research.

That's what needs to happen at the end of the day.

Before you Hire someone. I, I don't care if you, you know, talk to 3 people or if you talk to 1 person. Do your research.

Yeah.

And if you talked, like, if you go to True Texas Solar and you talk to them for the first time about a roof and they give you all the right answers and you test it, you fact-check it, you go check them out, you talk to their, you know, to, uh, you know, references that they've got, you do whatever online information you need to figure out and, and they check out, hire them.

Yeah.

But do your research.

Yeah.

And if you don't, then what's gonna happen is it will continue to get worse because here's the truth. Um, the more people that do it the right way, mm-hmm, will drive those other companies out. Even if you wind up, I mean, look, if you have to pay more to get your roof done right, You will save money most of the time because otherwise you're gonna have to hire them anyway to get it fixed whenever it was done incorrectly. Right. Same thing with the insulation stuff. You get something put in and it's not done right, you're gonna have to get somebody else out there to get it fixed anyway.

Right.

So get it done right to begin with. You're gonna save money and it will, I promise you, it will counter the problem because they will have to go away if they're not making money. Right. Right. Yeah. But we're almost gonna have to band together in this. Yeah. In order to, you know, to go look. And, and it's hard. It's hard to say, hey, go spend more money. It's not about spending more money. It's spending the right money.

Yeah.

That's the really where it boils down to.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I, I, I mean, I can't agree with that more. I mean, it's just like, let's just do your research.

Yeah.

Do, do the thing that's gonna be best for you. Don't, don't worry about, like, spend— I, I, I think you said it really well. Spend the right money.

Yeah.

You know, spend the right money. And sometimes that's, sometimes that's waiting.

Mm-hmm.

To find the right frog to kiss.

Yep.

You know, um, which is tough too.

We, we live, we live in a society, uh, in a culture, not a society, an impatient culture.

An impatient culture.

Yes. That just says, I need it now. I need it today. I mean, Amazon will get it to me here in a day, if not 2. And if I have to wait more than 2, oh my goodness. Right. And so it's tough because we find a problem, we want to fix it right now. Um, and you know, you can either, you can either go that route and wish you didn't, or you could listen to us and, and get it done the right way to begin with. And look, I'm not, I'm also not going to sit here and tell you that if you do all your research, you'll never have a problem.

No.

Because 2 things are, are true in life. Number one, nothing is always true.

Mhmm.

I mean, with rare exception, nothing is almost never true. Right? So, I, I mean, always true. And so the, the second thing is people make mistakes.

Yeah.

So the good guys, again, you spend the right money, the good guys will fix it.

Right.

Because they're gonna answer the phone whenever you call them back. Right? So the right money is still the right money. And if you have to finance a little bit more, finance a little bit more. You know, do it. This goes to re— to insurance, uh, too. Do your, do your research on your insurance.

Yeah.

Because otherwise you're gonna get saddled with some of this that you weren't prepared for either. So we, we actually got a letter today in the mail that said, um, your, your insurance coverage is not sufficient for your mortgage.

Oh.

And it said something about some of the coverage that we have is supposed to be either 100% of this value or 80% of that value, whichever is greater. Well, I don't even know if it's accurate. So I'm digging into my policy and I'm getting ahold of my, my, um, agent and going, hey, is this, is this actually true? And, but I'll tell you right now, if it's insufficient, I'm gonna start doing some research.

Yeah.

Before I'm, before I add anything. Because once you start adding stuff or changing stuff, your policy can go wonky on you.

No, you have no experience with that. Right.

So just be careful. You know, again, do your research. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

So. We got anything on this? Anything else on this?

No, I, I, I think we're good. I, oh, I will say this. So there is someone who's commenting here and saying, so got in late, came to the show late. Did you say spray foam does not insulate?

No.

No.

Did not say that.

Not anywhere close. Go back and listen to the beginning of it. We like, not only do we say that it's insulation, it's superior.

Yeah, we think it's a far superior insulation.

Absolutely.

when done properly.

Right. When done properly.

Yeah.

Yeah. By the right people.

Yeah. You know, done poorly, it can be a fricking nightmare.

Yeah. Yeah. Right.

But not, but not necessarily the fault of the spray foamer.

Right. No. And, and again, it, it's just, look, do your research. That, that's all we're saying. That's the main thing. Um, and, uh, our friend Laken actually just, uh, messaged in and said, I'm dealing with a client right now who didn't, uh, who didn't update her policy. Uh, house fire has happened, unfortunately. Oh, geez. Uh, and the policy coverage is not sufficient to cover her build. So that's exactly right. Just check and make sure you got everything right. Yeah.

So does, does that mean, like, in a situation like that, and, and you don't have to respond, Laken, I'm just curious for the insurance people listening, like, does that mean that they're gonna get some money, but it's not sufficient to rebuild? Yeah. Or is it like they're just not gonna get anything?

Yeah. It's curious.

Like when, like when you don't have the right coverage, does the, does the insurance company look at that and go like, nope, We're not doing anything. You know what I mean?

Yeah. I mean, my, my guess is it's still gonna pay out. It's just not gonna, my guess is it's just not gonna be sufficient.

They're just gonna have to come outta pocket for the rest of it.

But if it's not sufficient, like your options are pretty bad.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, if, if you only, like, let's say it is 80%. If you only get 80%.

Yeah.

Well, goodness, if you got a $400,000 house, 80%'s pretty stinking, you know, this, that 20%'s a lot.

This, this is something that I find that's interesting with insurance.

Yeah. It, it, she said it only, they only receive their policy coverage amount.

Okay. So at least they got something.

Something.

Um, better. I mean, I mean, I hate that that, that happened, but like, hope, you know, hopefully that helps.

Sure.

Get, get them somewhere close. Um, and you know, gosh, that's terrible. House fires are the worst.

Yeah, for sure.

Um, but so one of the big things that people do around here is they petition their, their property values in order to contest their property taxes.

Oh yeah.

Right. Yeah.

And so That's a catch-22.

It is. And then it gets even worse. So then you use that to get your—

Yeah.

Your property values for your insurance.

Yeah.

But the problem is, and I think we've talked about this before, is like, if that policy is set in place for that value of that house, if the actual market to material to rebuild that is not sufficient, you're not gonna get enough money to rebuild the house should something happen to it. So you've, you've kind of, in one sense, you know, by wanting to pay less taxes, which I totally understand. Look, I'm, I'm, I'm one of those guys. I not, not, I don't, I'm not saying I contest my property values all the time, but I weasel my way out of as many taxes as possible.

Sure.

Um, and, but like, you know, you can get yourself into a situation where, kind of like what Laken's talking about, where you're not going to get enough money to rebuild your house because you have done so many things in order to devalue your property in the eyes of your county or whatever it is that, that you've got going on. And then your insurance company's gonna, you know, work off of those numbers. Yeah. But like, when your house was built, it may have cost, you know, I don't know what the going rate is now. It's like, like $110 a square foot or something like that to build a house.

Oh no.

I mean, like, what is it? What is it?

I don't know.

You're, you're way off.

Way low. I mean, on, on average, you're like good price, like super low, $160 to $200 on a custom home.

Okay. So I wasn't like, Mountains away.

Well, you start spreading that out over 2,000 square feet.

I thought you were gonna say like $2,000 a day.

No, but 2,000 square feet, I mean, you, you're spending an extra $50. That, that turns out to be a lot.

Sure. All right. I'm, I'm looking it up real quick.

But I mean, I don't know, Laken may even tell me I'm wrong. But, uh, typically, you know, if you're going custom, you may be able to find something for less than that if you're doing a, you know, a, a ready-built type home. Um, but $160,000 to, to $200,000 is average. Let's see here, see what Craig comes up with.

Okay, so it's— I mean, like, it depends.

Like, it don't always depend.

$150 to $500 per square foot.

$500? Okay.

I mean, like, that's not helpful at all.

But, but it's all because, okay, are you going to build a, a barn shell with a concrete floor?

Okay, here we go, here we go. Or are you going to put some basic track or spec home around $200 to $300 per square foot. Custom home with good finishes, $250 to $500 per square foot. Luxury custom home, $400,000 to $600,000.

Yeah. But, but again, you're where?

No, this is specific to, to Texas.

Okay.

Yeah. And it's, it's dealing specifically, like, it's pulling the numbers from metropolitan, like Austin, Dallas, Houston.

Sure.

That, which oddly enough, San Antonio's not included in there. Apparently the houses there are just crap.

Yeah.

Of course. It's bringing the numbers down so they don't include it.

We've done some of those evaluations. You know, we've done some shows on that too. But Laken actually said they're looking at an offset 40, they're having to offset $40,000 to $50,000 that she's having to cover because she didn't update her coverage based off current building price points. So that's, that's the point that, that I think is so important. It's like, let, let, let's say you did get a home 10 years ago.

Mhmm.

And, and you're, you have an issue.

Right.

Well, 10 years ago, your replacement value is totally different.

Way different. Yeah.

You know, so thank you, COVID. Yeah. Update them. And, and, and that's my, that, that's the thing. And we, we gotta let her, we're looking into it. I'm not just going to be like, oh, whatever. First of all, I think my mortgage is going to require it. But even still, like, I want it. I want to be covered.

Right.

No matter what.

Yeah.

You know? So.

Dude, you don't want to be left out with that big matzo ball.

No, no, nowhere. I mean, $40K to $50K that they're having to offset because of this. I mean, that's it.

No, no. Like hardly anybody has that sitting in the bank. No.

No.

I mean, like what?

Maybe a home equity loan. If you've got 10 years in your home, maybe you've got a home equity loan that you can get or something, you know, a HELOC that you can do something with. But most people don't.

Hang on. So I, I wanna get this number right.

So the insurance company actually evaluated her home to be built, uh, back for more than what she was covered per, uh, per the, uh, the estimate by the insurance company. But still, she's still upside down on it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So the, what I, the number I just pulled up is that 78% of Americans are reported to be living paycheck to paycheck. So that means like zero savings.

Well, especially today, over, over the last, you know, 10 years, it's gotten worse and worse and worse, I'm sure.

Yeah.

You know, but that's not shocking to me. It should be shocking, but it's not. I would like it to be shocking.

Well, and like of, of the 22% that aren't living paycheck to paycheck, that doesn't mean that they've got a lot of money in the bank.

Right. Of course.

That just means they're not living paycheck to paycheck. It means they have some savings.

Sure.

That could be like 10 grand. Right.

Right. No, it doesn't have to. Yeah. Right. So anyway, well, we have gone longer than we anticipated tonight. Thank you for listening. Appreciate you, uh, you know, phoning in here, Lakin, and, uh, no shirt, no shoot, no shoes, no shirt, no problem guy. Um, thank you for, uh, for listening, for being part of our, our show today. Uh, you know, if we can ever, you know, answer some questions for you, please send us a message. And, uh, like us, subscribe to all the channels. We appreciate you very much. Until next time, we'll see you later. See ya!