Unveiling the Secret Lives of Termites with Expert Tyler Cooper

It's episode 333 here in the Homeowner Show Studios. My name is Craig Williams. I'm so glad you guys could join us for another episode here at the Homeowner Show Studios. So glad you guys could join us. We got a special guest tonight. Kevin's out of town. I think he's actually up at Notre Dame tonight. Um, but so glad that you guys could tune in and be a part of the show. Uh, hope you hang in there. Uh, before we get started tonight, I wanna be sure and thank our sponsors. First up tonight is Lone Star Appliance Repair. Guys, uh, let them change your appliance story, uh, because so many times appliances break and we get talked into replacing them and going to a big box store and spending way too much money when you could have just spent a couple hundred bucks and probably gotten that old beauty

up and running again. I've used them several times myself. Reliable, reasonable, and honest. Give 'em a call. Oh my gosh, I can't even see the number. Oh, there it is. 936-647-2364. You can call or text and they're happy to respond. Darlene will get you all squared away. We are also brought to you by True Texas Solar and Roofing. Uh, guys, if you want an honest appraisal of your property to get yourself set up with independent energy through solar panels, Josh and his team over at True Texas Solar and Roofing are happy to get you squared away. And there's not a better time to get your roof changed out than right before you get solar put on, which is why they've moved into the solar— into the roofing market, uh, to make sure that your roof is secure to hold

those panels. But they can also get you set up with an array out in the yard if you got plenty of room to set those up. But it's, it's a whole home system, guys. You can go solar, generator, whole home battery backup and get it integrated and get yourself off the grid at least as much as you legally can, uh, and still giving a little bit of change back to Uncle Sam. But these are the guys to get it done for you. 936-286-8325. Give 'em a call. They're happy to give you a hand. Guys, we have a special guest tonight. Uh, my buddy Tyler. Uh, we've been working together for a long time and I'm happy to bring him on the show. Uh, especially since Kevin's out so we

can actually have an adult conversation. How you doing, man?

I'm doing fantastic. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, of course. Let, let everybody know how we know each other, where you come from, uh, and who you're, who you're, uh, supporting there if it's not obvious on the hat.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, uh, like you said, my name is Tyler Cooper. I'm, uh, I'm a representative for, uh, Corteva Agriscience. We are the manufacturer of Centricon, uh, which is a termite baiting, uh, system, uh, for termite control. Um, been in the industry for going on 14 years, I believe now.

Yeah.

Um, and the entire time, um, started off knowing your parents right away and, and knowing you working with your parents and then, uh, you taking over the business and just being a longtime customer and supporter of Centricom.

I think we've been working with you since you started there, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So I started, Kevin will be happy about this. I went to school at Texas Tech. I have a bachelor's and a master's degree in agronomy and took a job with Corteva thinking I would end up in that side. And they put me in termites and I've been there ever since.

Yeah. So for people that don't know, what's agronomy?

It's plant and soil science.

Okay.

So I had a, I actually was kind of a very specific degree in turfgrass, especially in turfgrass management. Yeah. And so we have a turf line on our side of the business, turf and ornamental side, which, you know, for turf and ornamentals being the things you buy at Home Depot and nurseries and things like that. And thought I was gonna work in that and they had different plans for me. And, you know, it works. God works in mysterious ways because I've been in this for Like I said, almost 14 years, I guess, going, or a little over 14, I think at this point. And, um, yeah, I love every bit of it.

Yeah. Cause I mean, we've been, we've been using Centricon products in our business for well over 20 years at this point.

Yeah. So Centricon's been on the market since 1995. Um, and I want to say y'all have been on since around '95, '96. So even before I was, um, obviously in the service.

So maybe longer than I'm thinking. Is that—

Yeah, it's, it's, it's all 30 years. So this is, this year is 30 years for Centricod.

I mean, I, I mean, just for context, I mean, like, I remember, uh, doing like our first couple of installs with these and, you know, cuz now they have bait in them.

Yep.

When they first started, all they had was 2 sticks, like 2 wooden sticks in it with a plastic divider.

Yep.

And when you put it in, if it was an active site, I mean, you had to inspect that thing every month.

That's right. Yes.

And then when you, or if you installed it and then you got an active hit, then you had to start inspecting it every month.

That's right.

I mean, like, it used to be a grind to put these things in.

I joke that I was probably in middle school when that happened, so I didn't have to deal with that portion of it. Uh, yeah, so it— you're exactly right. We called it, um, monitor, uh, or bait, monitor, and then replace. So you would put it out, you had wood sticks in the ground, the termites would, would come and eat on those wooden sticks. And then once you found that activity, you would put an active bait cartridge in the ground and That's what would take care of them. But like you said, you started that on a monthly basis. So every single site that you had, you know, average of, of, uh, one station every 10 foot around a structure, you had to go to every one of those

houses once per month and check them.

Yeah.

And it was brutal. Fast forward 30 years and now you put an active bait in the ground and then you check them once per year minimum. You can check them as many as you want, but once per year now.

So that's— I think, I think when you guys sign up new clients, you should make them check it monthly just for the first year. I mean, they're all spoiled to live. They're all spoiled. They don't, they don't understand.

Yeah. And, and, and I, you know, growing up in, in West Texas and, and living there for 25 years and then coming here, there's a bit of a weather shock difference.

Yeah.

Yeah. I haven't, I couldn't imagine doing that year round like you've had to back there.

You're just soaking wet by the time you get done.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't even get me started.

Well, and not only that, man, when we, when we started installing them, We thought we were all fancy schmancy 'cause we went and bought an auger.

Oh yeah.

You know, and it, I had to actually, I had to break that thing out the other day on a big job because it was like, it was just rock hard.

Gas powered.

It's the one I called you about.

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was gas powered one.

Yep.

And I finally had to break the auger out. I hadn't used that thing in years. I was like, I was just excited it started.

You must've put the good gas in it though.

I did. But, uh, but like, you know, we, we thought we were, we were fancy because we had that auger.

Yeah.

And, you know, just doing the installs back then was— I mean, you, you had to work out a little bit a couple months in advance to get ready for an install. I mean, that thing's heavy.

It is.

You let go, it'll whack you. And, you know, so now we do it with drills.

Yeah.

And, you know, little bits and things like that that make it a lot easier. We, you know, we figured out a lot of stuff along the way.

Yeah, I think the funniest thing about it, going back to when it first started, the The saying put a square peg in a round hole was, was literally what you did. Yeah. Because the first iteration was, was actually a square. Oh gosh. And it's like, I guess, you know, plastic moldings come along within 30 years too.

So we can make a round one, boys.

Yeah, we can make a round one.

Yeah.

So that's, that's, that's Centricon now.

Well, I mean, I guess, I mean, studying soil, I mean, they, they didn't put you in the wrong field. I mean, like, you definitely understood what was happening.

Yeah. Yeah. There's, I guess there's a method to the madness, right? I mean, what we do on a day-to-day basis is a little of a business mixture of business and science. And me as a, you know, at the heart of who I am and what I love to do and just being a naturally curious person, I gravitate more towards the technical side of it, not so much the business side. And that's what I always say is my kind of expertise.

Yeah. Oh no, because you can, you can actually talk about, talk, I mean, because you're talking to guys like me who, who aren't necessarily like, we're, we're more of the technicians and the, you know, the guys in the field who are experiencing these kind of things. And you can kind of describe to us like, okay, well this is how the product should be used and this is actually what's happening. And here's how, here's how you can use it so you can make it work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, you know, I think I like to pride myself as being able to ride the line. Like I love and understand the science side of it.

Yeah.

But then being able to relay that to someone to then essentially putting myself in the homeowner's shoes, how would I explain it to them and make it understand? Right.

Yeah.

So analogies and things like that. That's what I really enjoy about, about the day-to-day stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, let's, let's talk a little bit about how this works because I know there's, there's been a lot of data and research coming out. I think University of Florida.

Yeah.

Right. Is that the, is that the main?

It's, it's definitely the biggest. Um, they are the, just entomology, entomology, just in general, they're probably the biggest university in the world for that. Uh, but termites specifically, um, you know, that's, Centricon got its start at the University of Florida.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and so, and, you know, we just happened to be able to, to partner with them to, to make it what it is now. But, um, the science, the studies of termites, everything, most everything that goes on at least originated in Florida and then gone out from there.

Is there like one guy kind of leading the research over there for that? Or—

It was Dr. Nanyao Su. And now there's— he's got someone there with him, Dr. Tomas Chauvenc. Those are 2 of the biggest. Su is still there. Chauvenc is— I don't know what his official title is now, but he's professor there. He teaches a lot of courses and things. And a couple of years ago, I went— they do a class every I want to say it's going to be 2 times a year now. It's getting popular. They call it the Termite Course for Professionals. So it's very product agnostic. You know, you do talk about control measures and things like that, but it's more the true science of termites themselves.

Yeah.

And then it goes really, really deep into it and fascinating stuff. And I'd say we've learned more about termites in the last 10 years than the previous like 50 combined, mainly because of the ability to study a colony at the colony level. Because they have complete labs set up to rear termites, to grow them, to, you know, in some cases eventually kill them, right? Just to, just to, you know, how do we, how do we combat these types of things? So fascinating stuff.

And did you, did you go this year?

Year before last.

Year before last.

Year before last.

Okay. So what are, what are like, So you're saying we're learning a lot more in the last 10 than we have. What's some things that we've been learning that we didn't know before?

So a few things, you know, I think some things have been theorized, but now we can prove it. As an example, one thing that, you know, I, I at least I learned in this was, and maybe somebody else knew this, but, you know, I didn't pay attention or something, but is that when termites molt, there's only one member of that colony that molts, right? And that's, that's the worker. But when, when termites molt, they actually return to wherever the nest is. Think of the nest as like the heart of that colony, the brain. It's the epicenter. And they'll have one kind of defined area or multiple satellite, but there will be one like brain center to that. When they molt, they go back there to do that

for various reasons.

So not the satellite?

Not— they could be, yes.

But they could do it. Okay.

But not You know, when we think of termites, when we, or we just assume they're eating on our structure or in a tree or whatever, they're not gonna do it there.

Okay.

They're gonna go back to wherever that nest is.

I gotcha.

Uh, wherever that main nest is, and they're gonna do that there. And so things like that, um, we can kind of prove now.

Okay.

Um, and so those are, those are big deals. Um, another one is, is, uh, the way that, uh, like Novaflumuron is the active ingredient, um, how it actually works, right? Um, We know that what we typically say, and I joke that a lot of people get wrong, is that they— we say it stops them from molting. Well, that's not completely 100% true. It's part of the story, but it's not exactly how it happens, right? It's not what it does to kill them.

Real quick, because I wanted to— what is molting for people that don't know?

Yeah, so insects, a lot of insects, you know, specifically termites and things, they'll have an exoskeleton. If you have an exoskeleton, every so often you have to go through a molting process. It's like shedding a skin, like a snake does. Right.

Yeah.

You're shedding your skin. And so they, they do that every so often. Um, for subterranean termites, you know, depending what— here's another thing we learned. Um, what truly dictates the molting cycles is the age of the termite. So the older the termite is, the more days there will be between their molting cycles. The younger the termite, the less days, and the younger you are, the closer to the nest that you stay.

Okay.

And so those are a couple more things that we have learned through that. But that's the mold thing.

Which, I mean, I mean, for, for people wondering, the reason that's important is because like when we, when we open up a wall and we start seeing multiple life stages of termites, we're okay, we're pretty close to the nest.

Very much so. Yes. And we see that a lot with, with Formosans where they're gonna They can build that nest inside the structure.

Yeah.

And that's a scary thing for a lot of folks.

I've seen it. I mean, it's nasty.

Yes. With your eastern subterranean, they don't do that. And so you can still be close to the nest, but it's not going to be in that structure. It's still going to be in the ground somewhere. But who knows where that's at?

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

So sorry. Go. Yeah, we were talking. I stopped you.

No, you're good.

Task molting.

Yeah. So that's molting is they have to shed that exoskeleton. So the way, um, Novaflumiron works is, let me back up. So the mode of action, our, our active ingredient is called Novaflumiron. Um, the mode of action of Novaflumiron is what's called a chitin synthesis inhibitor.

Mm-hmm.

What chitin is, is, you know, I said I like analogies. Um, humans' bones, we wear them on the inside of our bodies. They're made out of calcium. A termite's bones are made out of chitin. They wear them on the outside of their body in the form of an exoskeleton. If you have that exoskeleton, as you grow and get older, you have to shed that and get a new one. And so what a CSI bait does, Novoflumuron, is it's— it doesn't stop them from molting, but it doesn't allow them to make a new exoskeleton. So they go back to the nest, they go through the molting process, they get rid of the the exoskeleton that they have. If they have not been affected, then

what would happen is they would have that new one underneath. It's kind of wet, it's malleable.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and it's soft. And what it will do is it'll attach— there's a cuticle to it, and that cuticle will attach to their muscles. Um, and then over a few-day period of time, it'll sclerotize, which just hardens up. And then once it's to a point that it's good to go, they go back out into the workforce. If a termite has been affected by the CSI bait, same process, they go back to the nest, they shed that exoskeleton, but now they don't have a new one under it. And so just like you or I, you know, if it gets really hot out here and you're not drinking water, what do your muscles do?

Yeah, they get stiff.

They get stiff, they cramp up because there's no moisture there. Well, in this case, there's no cuticle of an exoskeleton to bind to. So their muscles are essentially exposed to the elements. When that happens, they start to desiccate and dry out and it actually strangles them to death.

Oh my gosh.

So that's how it actually kills them.

Yeah.

Um, and so it doesn't necessarily stop them from molting, but it doesn't allow them to complete that full molting life cycle.

Okay.

And it's a, you know, targeted approach. Only, only happens to the termites, only happens to the worker termites because they're the only ones that molt. And that's what makes it very effective.

And so it happens quicker to the younger ones than it does to the older ones.

That's right. The problem with that, right, if you're a homeowner and just a layperson, you don't know, you don't live in this world, you don't get it. You know, one thing I always like to say is, you know, with, with what I call just general pest control, you know, you might call an exterminator because I have ants or I have roaches or whatever. Exterminator comes, they spray, and one of two things is going to happen. You're either going to see something dead or you're going to see nothing at all. Right. And with a, with a termite baiting system, it's kind of a paradigm shift where we're going to put a bait out and they're going to start feeding on that. And that's a good thing.

And we're going to watch them decline because it doesn't work on them immediately.

Right.

It only works when they go to molt. But why that's a good thing is, is during that time to molt, um, they spread it and it's like a virus. So once they eat it, they're infected. They feed another one, that one's infected, and then it just spreads through that colony.

Well, and the good part about them not realizing what's going on is it's able to actually be more widespread.

Exactly.

You know, rather than being like a contact pesticide that's in the soil or something right there, like you're actually using the termite to actually get the poison into the system.

Exactly. Beautifully said. Right. One thing we say is we're turning their biology against Yeah. Right. They're eating something they don't know is gonna kill them. They feed their friends because that's what they do to survive. And then by doing that, they're, they're unknowingly infecting their friends. And then that spreads like a virus.

How do they spread it though? I mean—

So it's a process called trophallaxis. It's just a fancy word for regurgitation. So they eat, they eat the— anything, anything that they eat. Excuse me.

They eat it.

And then they break it down. So termites have a protozoa in their gut that allows them to break down like woody cellulose material and digest it. And then they feed that with one another. Well, the bait that they're eating is, is a form of the same thing. It's a manmade version of that. And so they eat it and then they feed each other. They trophallaxis, they just regurgitate it to one another.

Yeah.

And then once they've eaten it and once it's in their system, they can't stop it. But then they spread it every time they feed another one.

No.

Okay.

So it's, uh, so it kind of gets in their system, stays in their system, and then every time, even if they eat something else, they're still regurgitating a little bit more and a little bit more. Yep.

I got you. Exactly. Because of that protozoa in their gut. That's exactly right.

Interesting.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's, you can go, we can go really deep into the weeds and be here a while. That's the fun stuff.

Well, okay. So like, you know, tradition, like, and people, I mean, people that have been watching the show for a long time know that I, I have a pest control business. We don't talk about it a whole lot, but like, I know anytime I have a customer that has termites, they almost always want to know, why aren't you tenting? Why aren't you trenching and pouring, you know, chemicals in the ground? Which are viable options, by the way. I mean, like, no, I don't think anybody's going to dispute that. But like, I know the research that's coming out of U of F is saying like, look, this one is just farther reaching. I mean, that's what I—

that's really what I want to hear a little bit about from you is like, I want to know what that research is actually saying, like how much further how more effective. Um, and again, it's not to say that any of those other products are bad, don't work. I mean, like, there's, there's a— for me, there's a time and place for them. Um, you know, I, I don't do fumigation, so I'm not interested in tenting.

I, I— well, there's, there's only really one reason you would ever do that.

Sure.

But sure, I get what you're saying.

Yeah. And but like, when it comes to liquid, I mean, sometimes it's a— one, sometimes it's a price issue, or someone like just doesn't want to pay to have their whole house done. Or, you know, there's a multitude of reasons why people ask about that.

Yeah.

But I actually want to, I want to hear from you, like, what's the data that's coming back as to like the, the effectiveness and the reach and, and, and what they're seeing the differences? Yeah.

So to touch on the fumigation first, um, that, that's very, uh, effective if, you know, if you want to get rid of, of of termites, tin it and fumigate it, right?

Really any living thing. Exactly.

Well, yeah, that can be a problem too, right?

I mean, look, that's the whole reason we don't do it is like, you know, if you don't do it right, you're dead before you know you did it wrong.

You're exactly right. So, um, but really what that is for is for, for drywoods and potentially dampwood termites. And that's it. And really in the Gulf Coast region of Texas, we don't see a ton of Drywoods. Now you can, don't get me wrong.

Dude, I found some the other day.

You can find them.

Absolutely. It was in a house in Spring. Okay. Um, and it was in a piece of furniture, and they'd been in that piece of furniture for probably 5 years.

Yeah, and that's the, that's the thing with them. Most of the time they are not native to this area. They're introduced, strictly introduced, and usually that's through furniture.

Yep.

Because it's coming from some part of the world that has them, they're in that, they don't even know they're in that, and then they get brought in and that's how you find them. And the why fumigation works for that is because they're going to be— they're not going to be in the ground. They're not going to be subterranean, right? Because the ground is a natural barrier for those gas fumigants anyway. So anything in the ground is not going to kill. It's only going to kill what's in that structure. But for drywoods, that's, that's what you—

that's the goal. That's a, that's a whole point. Yeah.

And so that's what fumigation is for. With, with liquid termiticides, um, they work. I'm never going to talk bad about a liquid termiticide, but they work differently, um, where you have the, the termites have to come into contact with it. Um, and depending on the, the amount and the rate that they come into contact with it will determine how long they live and how long they're able to spread that to others to get rid of it.

Right.

And so it's this, Kind of the same theory is you want them to come into contact with it and share it. Really, I guess kind of the difference, if you want to boil it down, is with a baiting system, you're, you're using that foraging, them always looking for a food source against them, where, you know, a baiting system is, is in a way designed to have gaps in it, whereas a liquid is not designed to have gaps in it. That's why you have to drill into concrete every, you know, depending on the state or the label, every 12 inches. And And doing what we call rotting, where you're putting it, the chemical into the concrete or under the concrete. And, you know, you can't really control—

Old school trenchings.

Or yeah, exactly. And so it's just 2 different modes of actions, essentially, the way they work and what we're doing to work against the biology of that termite.

Right.

Those are the main differences.

Yeah. But I mean, what's the data that we're hearing out of University of Florida with in regards to like, because I know there's been a comparison done.

Yeah. You know, so one of the things that, uh, like, I think what you're probably referring to is a, is a study of, you know, do you want to potentially use both around a structure? And I, the science says don't, um, pick one and do one. Um, really don't mix the two. Um, you know, one thing that can happen is with a liquid termiticide is if they, come into contact with it, depending on the rate and the amount, that will dictate how fast those termites die. And if they die quickly, that doesn't allow them to travel very far, thereby spreading that chemical to other members of that colony.

Yeah.

And so—

And the reason that works is because they're social. Because they're social. That's right.

They're always grooming, feeding each other, working as a, as a team, right? Think of Think of the colony of termites like one big superorganism. One individual termite is not your enemy. That entire colony is your enemy because they all have one goal and that's survival. And they work together to do that.

Yeah.

And so that's what you're going after. You got to get rid of that whole colony. And so if they die, if they come into a liquid termiticide and it's at, you know, a really high concentration in a certain area because say maybe you did like a spot treatment. Well, you're going to get a bunch of death really quickly. And those termites are no different than you and I. You know, if you pull up to a scene and you go, you go to a restaurant and there's a bunch of dead people in there, you're probably not going to go in there and eat, right? You're going to go elsewhere. It's kind of the same concept, right? So they're, they're going to avoid those areas. So that's one of the big

things is, and, you know, naturally speaking.

And I mean, that's because of like pheromones and, and trails and different things. Like, I mean, like there's all sorts of reasons why they would avoid that area?

100%. Well, 2 main ones. One is, um, exactly what you— pheromones. So one of the things they do is they put out pheromones, one of them being a danger pheromone. Hey, we're experiencing mass casualty, go elsewhere.

Right.

So avoid it. But then the other one is just truly the dead termites, right? The, the dead decaying termites, they don't want to be around that. So they'll wall that area off and just avoid it.

Yeah.

And so you, you take what's called, uh, you know, these, um, insecticides, these liquid termiticides that we use for them are traditionally speaking what we call a non-repellent, right? We don't want it to repel them. We want them to come into contact with it. But if they come into contact with it and you kill a bunch of them in a short period of time in a small area, it turns it into what's called secondary repellency. It's not the chemical itself that's a repellent. It's the death that it caused that is a repellent.

Right.

So they go elsewhere.

Right.

And that's the kind of the bigger issue of the differences between the two.

Yeah. But this is, this is why I think a lot of people need to pay attention and actually like have conversations with their pest professional, right? Yes. Because, you know, if you look at the label, bifenthrin on most— yeah, where it's, where it's an active ingredient in a pesticide that I'm, I'm not saying a specific brand purposefully, but bifenthrin is a very popular active ingredient. Most of them list termites on the label. Like, you can use most bifenthrins as a termiticide. But to your point, exactly what you're talking about, it's going to kill a bunch of them real quick.

Yep.

Especially you put it in the soil.

Yep.

I mean, and if you don't believe me, just apply it to a fire ant mound and watch what happens within 2 minutes.

Yep.

With like a, like a 0.05 dilution of bifenthrin, it kills them like crazy.

And you could probably correct me because you probably have a little more experience on it than I do, but if you go to Home Depot or Walmart or any big box store, it, if you look at the active ingredient on probably 70% or more of those products, bifenthrin is the, is the biggest homeowner available active ingredient there is.

Yep. I mean, if you like, just, I mean, the one that you, if you brought up Home Depot, I mean, it's like Home Defense, which is the big product. Bifenthrin is the active ingredient in that. Um, so, but then you have other ones where it's like fipronil, which again, both fipronil and bifenthrin are non-repellent pesticides.

That's right.

But it'll whack them really quickly. One, if it's not applied properly. And 2, like depending on the concentration rate that they used, you know, man, and you and I both know that even though someone has a license doesn't mean that the thought doesn't go through their brain. Well, it said 2 ounces per gallon, so why not 6? Yeah.

If a little's good, a lot's even better. Yeah.

And then my customer would be happy.

Yes.

You know, because I got the job done better than the other guy. And like, this is, this is the thing is like, like you, like the, the reason you wanna work with people in, particularly in this business that have been in business for a while.

Mm-hmm.

Is because they've, they've experienced that and seen what happens when guys don't do it right.

1,000%.

You know, and this is from our, from our side of the table, the, the pest control, uh, professional, like it infuriates those of us that have any integrity because we understand That when guys do that, we know that it's just pushing it further and further to where eventually we're gonna lose good products.

Yep.

Because that's exactly what's happened in the past is we've lost so many good products because of misuse.

Yep.

And people wouldn't quit screwing around.

Uh, you're, you couldn't be so anymore. Right. And, and, you know, I, I, I like to come in from my background analogy. Uh, I like to use, you know, I grew up farming is Roundup. You know, what you said a while ago, you know, if, if a quart per acre or a pint per acre is good, well, a quart per acre is even better. Well, that's how you, you know, 5, 6, 7 years. That's, you get weed resistance and you have pigweed that you can no longer get rid of in a cotton field. And, and that's a, that's a big, big deal.

That is a big deal.

That's a huge deal. And people don't think about the outcomes and consequences to those actions later on down the road.

Well, I tell you a big one that I've, I mean, I keep hearing and you may actually know a little bit about this, even though it's not like your area. I mean, I have heard that we are going to get a use restriction put on road, like we're basically losing FIFRA.

Oh yeah.

You know, that like all rodenticides are gonna get pulled off the shelf. public access is just going to be done. And I keep telling people, I was like, look, enjoy the pricing on rodent control right now. Because as soon as that goes away, our prices are going to skyrocket. Yeah. Because I mean, like we, we become the only buyer and there's no way that we can sell as much as Home Depot and Lowe's. Yeah. You know, and if they take it away from them, I mean, you want to watch some prices skyrocket? Yep.

It's a supply and demand issue at that point.

Yeah.

Yep, you're right. And I don't know a ton about that, you know, given what we used to— we once had a product called ActiveSense and it was remote monitoring for this, right?

Oh, I remember when you got— yeah, I remember that. Yeah.

To kind of stave off some of the using those rodenticides when you don't have to for this very reason.

And I think we were talking about that when I was doing the airport job. Yes. Because it was like, it was like just kind of coming out.

Well, that's when we were losing it.

Oh, okay.

That when you were doing the airport job is when we were losing active sense.

Oh, no.

I don't— that's— that brings up bad memories, but I'm sorry. No, no, it's okay. But, uh, that's kind of the point of that was, is let's use technology, non-chemical technology, right? To intervene and not use rodenticides where we don't have to.

Yeah. Actually observe where the activity is.

Yes. You go back to—

makes total sense to me.

Yes, 100%. And so I've kind of been out of that game, so I don't know where it's come, but I do know that—

Are they still doing it?

Someone is.

Someone is.

Someone is.

Yeah.

So I miss that. I enjoyed doing that.

That was cool tech.

It was very cool tech. It was kind of ahead of its time.

Yeah.

It was part of— I think part of the problem was adoption was hard because it was You know, how do we make a business case out of it?

Yeah. I mean, I, like, well, and I think now, I mean, like, with, with some AI tools, I mean, like, you would really, like, yeah. You could kill it with that. Yeah.

I mean, when you're actually getting, like, predictive analytics. Yes. Yes. Based on, yeah.

I mean, because once the AI kind of figures out a rodent's pattern and, like, okay, so on Tuesdays it's here, on Wednesdays it's here, and then we're seeing this many and this many and this many, like, you can go, okay, just put it right here.

Yeah. You know, I think about that every day. It's like if we had ChatGPT, like, 4 years earlier, ActiveSense could be huge right now.

Yes.

Because it gave us a ton of data, but didn't know what to do with it. Yeah. We didn't know necessarily know what to do with it.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, or we were figuring it out.

I mean, you guys probably could have figured it out, but like you're relying on guys like me to put it in the field properly and then give you the data.

Yep.

You know, and they probably weren't giving you the data.

Well, yeah. Well, most were, but it's what do we do with this data? Right. If you're putting it in a, say like a, I don't know, an Amazon distribution center.

Right.

And you've had it out for 2 months and over 2 months you finally figured out, okay, we know why this is a problem. It's because these trap, the sensors go off at 2 AM at the same door every Tuesday. Well, you can go back and look at your logs and say, well, that's when we have a shipping coming in. The doors are going up and anything on and off that truck is rodent-wise is going right into the stations that we have.

So, right.

And so, but it takes a while to figure that out.

Yeah. And that's where I think AI, you would probably need other datasets.

Yes. To compare against.

Yeah. Yep. You know, and like, when you're dealing with like a big structure like an airport, it's difficult to get all those datasets.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, so I can, I can understand why that would be tricky because the airport's so easy to work with.

Oh yeah. What, the 3rd largest in the world or in the United States?

Something like that. Yeah. It's no big deal. We had it.

Its own city.

Dude, we were like cavemen in there just clubbing stuff. Yeah, that's all that we could do.

I hate to see— I, when I fly out, in and out, I don't eat at the restaurant.

I don't recommend it.

Grab a, grab a Diet Coke to go and call it good.

Yeah, and make sure it's in a sealed container that nobody else touched. Yep. You know, it's been in the cooler with the screw down. Yeah, I do not eat there myself. I saw too much. Saw too much.

Yep.

And like, again, like I say that and I think the airport gets a bad rap. I mean, like you think about like how much business and commerce, like just food, just food at the airport is ridiculous.

Yeah.

The amount that comes in, that goes out, and like the amount of construction, like they're doing the best they can.

Yeah, and I don't fault the airport.

No, it's— there's too many variables.

Yes, you know, too many variables. But just also think about how much, uh, instances for, for rodenticides to come into contact with things that it probably shouldn't in an area like the airport, you know. That's— so safety is paramount. And so I, I get it at the same time.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's tough. Yeah, it's not, it's not It's doable.

Yeah.

I mean, but you just, you gotta be tenacious and you gotta be, I mean, you gotta be on it.

Yep.

So they were on it for about a month.

A month. And then they weren't.

And then they weren't, 'cause I wasn't working there no more.

I don't blame you on that one.

So, oh man, what were we talking about? Oh, stuff getting pulled. I was talking about like the misuse of pesticides and all those kinds. Okay. So with, Like, with what version of Recruit are we on, by the way?

Uh, it's called Recruit HD.

Recruit HD.

So I guess it would be the 5th.

The 5th version?

Yeah, the 5th version.

Okay. And with the Nova Flumeron in it. Okay. So how is that? Because we talked about non-repellents. Even though it's non-repellent, it still could create a catastrophic loss of termite life in one area. And so then you've kind of defeated the whole purpose of eliminating the colony, right? So how then does novafumuron get around that?

So it doesn't kill them right away. It, it only activates at the time of their molting. Um, and so it's, it's something called lethal time dose independent.

Okay.

Meaning it doesn't matter really how much, uh, or, uh, they take in and how much contact they come in contact with. They don't have to eat like they do.

It just matters that they get some of it.

Correct. And then they pass that on. Right. And so some of the work that University of Florida has done has shown that a CSI bait like novoflumuron, it only takes somewhere between 2.5% and 5% of the worker population feeding on that bait to take in a lethal dose to kill that entire colony.

That's crazy, man.

Because only 2, only 2, only 2.5% to 5% of the population, worker population feeding on it.

Yeah.

And so, you know, that's not much.

In fact, that— okay, that's even a smaller set than like saying like 2.5% to 5% of the entire colony. It's 2.5% to 5% of the workers.

That's right.

I mean, because like we have other castes.

Yes, but they don't, they don't feed on it. They can eat it. And that's so that's— we're narrowing it down to only those that feed on it.

Right.

And so that's a— it's a minute. In fact, that amount can be consumed in a 24-hour period. So, you know, it just, it doesn't take a lot to work. Yeah, it does not take a lot to work because it doesn't kill them right away, which is a good and a bad thing, right? It's a, it's a, if you're a homeowner and you've got, you know, termites eating on your house, you want them dead immediately. But you also want it to get rid of the colony so you don't have an ongoing problem, right? It's not, it's not putting a Band-Aid on a gunshot wound, right? You're, you're getting rid of the problem. So you need a little time to

work. So The good side is in that amount of time, you don't kill a bunch of termites in one area. And once it's in them, they can't stop it. And so it works its way through the colony and they can't outrun it. They can't just move and go away from that area.

Yeah, it's a death sentence.

So it's a death sentence.

Yeah. Well, and so, you know, we, when we do these, you know, if we have like an active infestation on a house, right? I mean, a lot of times we'll put like these AGs on there. you know, the little plastic boxes to put them right on top of the spot where they're coming and going so that we know that we're going to feed right there. But then we also put it on the perimeter.

That's right.

And, and part of the reason I try and explain this to people all the time, it's like, okay, yeah, we know that these guys are coming in the house right here. That doesn't mean that we don't have other colonies of termites existing in the yard. Um, and I don't know what the numbers are that are now. I mean, for years I've been operating like on a normal neighborhood patch, which is somewhere between 10,000 and 12,000 square feet, there's probably like 20 colonies.

Yeah. And, um, so there— I, I don't want to attribute this because I've heard a couple different, uh, versions of it. Um, I'll boil it down kind of in averages of what we, we feel like we know population of termites.

Sure.

Is for the entire United States, somewhere around 12 to 15 colonies of termites per acre.

Okay.

Now that depends on where you are.

Environmental conditions.

Someone in South Texas is far more likely to have termites than if you're somebody in Sioux Falls, Dakota, right? And so it, it, the pressure differences. So where we're at, I would not be surprised in the Gulf Coast of Texas, you know, a few miles from the coast that we're not on sitting on 20 to 25 colonies of termites for every acre of land.

Yeah.

Right. And so there's an insane number. There's a lot of them. And I love what you said. In fact, again, I don't want to— I want to say Dr. Sue said this at some point at one of these classes I was attending, but he said, um, nature hates a vacuum, right? So if you get rid of something, something else is going to move in to take its place.

Yeah.

And so with termites, you, you have the AEG station, you get rid of those termites, you just killed that. but we're talking a lot of pressure around it, something else is going to move in to take over its spot. And one thing you don't immediately get rid of is that gallery system that they have built underground leading back to a food source.

Yeah.

And now that food source could be as simple as a log on the ground, or it could be a house, you know, could be a Centurion station. That's what ultimately we want. But it can be multiple things, right? And so nature hates that void, something is going to move into fill its spot. So to your point, the AG, the above-ground station, is your curative, and then the in-ground is going to protect you going forward.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah. And I, you know, from my experience, it just works.

It just works.

I mean, it's that, and people ask me why, and I'm like, it's really hard to explain.

It is. It takes a long time.

You know, but like, just look, I've been using it for a long time. Just know that it works.

It works. Yeah, there's something magic. I don't know. It works. I mean, we, you know, obviously a little biased here, but you know, you don't, you don't stay on the market for 30 years.

No, with a bad product.

5 million sites in the ground at this point if it doesn't work.

Yeah. So, well, I mean, even, even back in the day, man, when like, you know, we got 2 wooden sticks in the ground, we, we see actives, we pull out our Tupperware dish and we're dumping termites in there and know, and then putting them back in a feed tube and putting them back in the ground. I mean, like, we did that because it worked.

Yeah.

You know, and, but like, it was, what was cool about it, you know, if, if nothing else, I, I appreciate the time that we had doing it the old school way because it actually showed me how it worked.

Yeah, it's a good point.

You know, you actually, I mean, you had physical interaction with those termites to kind of understand what was happening. And then like, if you're coming back every month, you're like, oh, well, they ate this much and oh, they ate that much. And Okay. Different, different things like that.

All right.

So one of the other things I wanna make sure and talk to you about, cuz I know this is something that you deal with, one of the products that I see out there, uh, particularly like PCOs like me, is termite attractant.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Yep.

Talk, talk to me about termite attractant, man. Like, I, I, one, do you guys, do you guys have a termite attractant that you add to the stations? Okay.

No.

Um, is there a reason you don't have a termite attractant?

No. So it's a good question and I've, So there's a couple things that are relatively new to the market, and I've been asked a lot about it recently. And I honestly, honest to God, don't know what to think.

That's kinda where I'm at.

Because forever, we have said—

Random forager.

It, it, it is essentially, right?

There, there's no predicting it.

I mean, like, all intents and purposes, they're deaf, dumb, and blind.

Well, that's, that's why I'm asking, because I know, I wanna know if there's, if there's been any reports. I mean, like, I mean, they're, they're making these products.

Yes.

And like they're putting on there that it's a termite attractant. I know what it does. Essentially, it's releasing like CO2 in the ground or something.

Yes.

Okay. All right. Just make sure I understand what's happening.

That's the way I understand it too. Okay. And I'm not— so this is very new and we're trying to figure this out because, you know, we, like I said, we've always said that termites are deaf, dumb, and blind when they find a food source. Doesn't matter if it's stick, a house, or Centricon station. It's happenstance. They find, like in the case of Centricon, they find the bait attractive, but it's not an attractant.

Yeah, there's, there's a big difference.

Words matter. Yeah. And so in this case, and the other thing that we say is don't, we don't want to put anything in that station that could also be detrimental to that station.

Sure.

And so is this that? I don't think so, but I also don't know. So that's why I'm kind of like standing on the sideline trying to figure out if it does. Great. I think there's a huge opportunity to potentially use it. But at this point, I don't know.

Nobody's, nobody's done any studies on these products. I mean, like, at least on y'all's end. Yeah.

No, right. Not on, not somebody, uh, internally that then, you know, the lawyers have also cleared to say, yeah, go nuts and go do it. So right now I'm just on the sideline. I mean, if it does, like, it would be a, it would be cool. It'd be a game changer.

Sure.

At this point, I just don't know.

Like, because I, I, my concern is the messaging to the customer.

I agree. Especially in a preventive aspect.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, you know, because like, okay, so I'm going to actually attract termites closer to your house? Like, that's, that's what I'm saying that I'm doing?

Yeah.

I don't want to do that.

Yeah.

Um, but they're also spending a lot of money.

Yep.

On a really nice product. And they want to see results.

And if this enhances it, great.

Yeah. Am I killing more termites in your yard than I otherwise would have?

Right.

It's, it's a weird one, man. It is.

I, and I don't know what to say. I'm, I'll, I'll say I'm cautiously optimistic is the way I'd say that. I just don't know a ton about it yet.

It's so new.

Nobody does.

I mean, that's the, and, and the problem is everything, now you already said it. I mean, everything that we've always been told from the guys who are a lot smarter than us is that there's nothing that attracts termites.

Yeah. You know, there's just a bunch of them, and then they run into it, and they just happen to be a food source to them. So, and that's—

I mean, the, the, I mean, the, the phrase that we've always used is conducive condition. Are we more likely to find termites in a condition that's like this or like this? Well, we're more likely to find them like this. Well, they must be attracted to that. Well, no, not really. It's just more likely that we're going to find them there than we would here.

Yeah.

And it's a good—

and if you think about every conducive condition you can think of, there's always 2 things in common, food and water.

Food and water.

And water is always their most limiting factor, right?

Especially around here.

Yes, absolutely. We go through periods of drought and water's always gonna be their most limiting factor. You think about a place around a house, wherever there's going to be the most moisture, that's the highest likelihood there are termites. Not because they're, it's pulling them there. It's because they have ran into that and said, oh, Here's the only spot we have moisture, so we have to kind of turn our attention there. So in a, you know, if we're talking about a preventative situation where you've got the stations around your house to protect you when they do come, but you've cleared it, it's been a preventative, but now you're going to put this down and potentially pull them to it. It's like, do I want to deal with that or not? So I don't know. I, we'll see.

I tell you what I need you guys to do. is I need a 90-degree AG. Uh, well, do you know what I'm talking about?

I do.

Like, my, like, I can, I can't tell you the number of times that, and for me, like, this is just like, if someone tells me that they have a problem, I just start looking for corners because I know that that's where they're gonna be.

Okay, so, well, let me back up. That's, so the, the whole point of the new formulation of on the newest AG, the Flex Pack, is for that.

Well, yeah, I know you can take it out of the— but like, I want the— I want the pretty box.

Okay. Well, that's okay. Unfortunately, no. But we'll have to talk after.

Okay. Okay.

We'll have to talk after.

We'll talk after.

I might have a surprise for you.

Oh, sweet. I like surprises. All right. Do I get credit? Is that— no, I didn't get credit.

I'll just say you're on the— Your line of thinking is, it's pretty smart.

Well, I mean, look, this is where I always find them now. It is like always in the corner. It is. And it's just so infuriating because like I have all these beautiful rectangles that I can't put in a corner.

Well, you know what's funny? You think, so we talk about this all the time. When I, if I do classes for, or for folks, when we do, we're talking about doing inspections, I always say, think like a termite. Where, where's there going to be food? Where's there going to be moisture? But also think of the, your, their surroundings. They're in the soil most of the time. If they're looking for food, they're going to be in those first few inches of the soil, right? If you go through, as someone who's done, I'm assuming, thousands of termite inspections, right? You can find a mud tube for termites literally anywhere on, on a house, on a foundation. But if you were to go

through your Rolodex of every mud tube you've ever seen, Mm-hmm. Where's probably the most common area you find a mud tube?

Uh, either near a drip line, in a corner.

In a corner, right? The reason being that foundation has probably funneled them to the corner and now they have a decision to make. Do I go up? Do I go down? Do I backtrack? Well, they do all of that, right? And when they leave the soil, they bring their, their environment with them and that's why they build a mud tube up. And so that's why you always find them in a corner is they've kind of just naturally got Funneled there.

Yeah.

And so think like a termite. If you're gonna— if you want to find termites, think like a termite.

Yeah. Which also, I need to ask builders to stop putting gutters in the corner. Like, really, where the, the—

they don't terminate in the, in the corner. Yeah, it's— that's awful practice.

So I— this, this is a, um, an account of ours, um, and he's an attorney. And he had bought a, uh, he basically bought like a, a big, big house. It was, it was like a 6,000 square foot house that he was going to turn into a, a multiple office facility. Um, and he said, hey man, um, I need you to come down and, and take a peek. Um, just bought this place, need you to get it sprayed, but I also want you to check it for termites. I think we've got some issues going on. I said, okay. Um, so I came and checked it out and he'd already bought it. And I said, hey

man, did you have like the building inspected before you bought it? And he goes, oh yeah, yeah, I know I paid for the inspection, termite inspection. Great. Could I see that? I mean, that's always my first question. Let me see the inspection. 'Cause I mean, if it's a good inspection, it's gonna give me some, it's gonna tell me where to go.

Yeah.

And like, okay, if you have problems, this is gonna be a good place to look. Cleanest report I've ever seen in my life, man. I mean, just like spick and span, nothing on it. I was like, well, that's kind of weird. And he's telling me he thinks he has problems. I was like, why do you think you have problems? So he takes me into like the front office area, and he's got like mud tubes on wood paneling on the inside of the house. And I'm like, okay, are these old? He goes, I don't know. I'm like, when did you have the inspection? It was like, it was like 2 weeks.

Oh my gosh.

Before that. I was like, okay. So I ended up finding like 3 active entrances into this place, and one of them It was one on the outside wall of that wood paneling. Like, all you had to do was look at the wood paneling and go like, oh, there must be something going on outside. Well, you go outside, you can't see anything, but there's a downspout from a gutter in a corner. And all I had to do was pull the gutter back. And as soon as I pulled the gutter back, big mud tube in a corner.

Right behind it.

Right behind it. I mean, I was like, why wouldn't there be? It's like, well, the water comes down right there. There's a corner, he's protected. I mean, like, yeah, it's Happy, happy, happy. Yep. But like, if you don't know what you're looking for, never inspected one before, you're just gonna— yep, look, look there. But I, but I, like, I, I'm not kidding, I found 3 more around, and some of them were just obvious. Yeah, it was. I mean, like, they didn't even—

they didn't want to find termites.

They wanted the check. Yep. It was an extra add-on. Yep. And they just went on with their lives. And I was like, I'm, I'm telling him, and like, I'm coming back with the price tag for like this gargantuan building because now I have to treat the whole thing.

Yep.

And how much it's gonna cost. And he's just calm and cool as a cucumber. And I was like, dude, you're kind of scaring me. And he's like, why? And I was like, because you look really calm and I can't tell if that's you mad or, or, and you're an attorney, or if you're just not like, or if you're just like planning your, your revenge. Yeah. I don't know what's going on. Um, I was just like, I'm just glad it, I'm just glad whatever it is, it's not gonna happen to me.

Yep. I'm, I'm the messenger. Don't shoot me. Yeah, that's right.

You know, but like, like, but that's, that's a, those are real situations, you know, like that can cost people and it did, it cost him thousands of dollars. Yeah. You know, for, for not having a good inspection on that.

Yep.

So, well, man, I, I want to, I want to talk a little because I know you were, you were checking out my, oh yeah, my glass jar over here. So that was a, um, yeah, you can bring it over.

I don't know.

I don't want to. You can just lift that up. There you go. So, so that is from a column on a back porch that I opened up, and it's a piece out of like a 4-foot-tall section. It's about all I could salvage because it was inside a column.

That's so cool.

Um, and, uh, I want— the reason I want to talk to you about it, because it was Formosans, and I know that's something that you're, you're super interested in. Um, dude, that That was a frustrating one. Yeah, because it could have been prevented had the house been built properly. Yeah, they basically built a hollow column all the way down to the ground.

Seen a few of those.

And at the top, they just didn't seal it off. And so it was just a column that would get filled with water every time. And then like, what they did do is they sealed the column with Tyvek, and so it just became like this sauna. You know, for, I mean, just, you wanna talk about happy.

Perfect environment.

Yeah. And boy, they went up, both of them.

Yep.

And so we had to completely take apart those columns and reinforce the structure 'cause it was a big roof holding that, those columns were holding up and everything below the rock was just paper. And—

I'm dealing with one currently. a customer, uh, went out because kind of the same situation, you got called in second after the fact.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, after they had already done a bunch of repairs and the repairs are now getting eaten up.

Oh, geez.

And so what it, what we eventually found and, you know, again, poor inspection practice, it's a, uh, pier and beam home.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so it, it, it probably didn't get crawled sufficiently.

Oh, is what you think?

And where all of the damage was, is in a, was in the back doorframe, in the door itself, one of those hollow core doors. Like it's, you could push your finger through both sides.

Oh, dang.

Um, but then all the doorframe and then just radiating out from there. Well, the, they built a new porch on it and, uh, the, the homeowner thought, you know, it's concrete porch.

Yeah.

Which it is. And it was sold to them as if it was a solid concrete porch. Well, it was more— it's a hollow dirt-filled porch.

Oh gosh.

And that dirt that is basically inside the steps is a carton nest. And that carton nest was going up and into this house and just wreaking havoc on this house. And we kind of found that that's where it was pinpointed to, was that, that area there. So.

That's crazy.

Yep. It's a bad situation.

Hmm. But like, I mean, but would— could they, could they have known that?

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Because if you— where the, the house is, it's level to the ground. You can obviously, you can see under it, concrete there. And they had skirting around that. And then it was a step.

I can't hear you.

Oh, sorry. And then it was a step going right up to the house, right?

Yeah.

And so If you crawl under that house, it basically terminates into the backside of that step. I gotcha. And you can see the whole backside is just, it's hollow.

Yeah.

And filled with dirt. And, you know, unfortunately it's, nobody bothered to go under there and look for that.

Yeah. That pier and beam houses scare me.

They, yeah.

I mean, I know, I know you can still put like Centricon on 'em.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but like you can't, I mean, like it's, it's next to impossible to go in and like really thoroughly inspect every single pier.

Yeah. You know, especially on old, older home where, you know, maybe at one time it was easy to access, but it just gets built up over time with more water and soil and getting moved under there and your crawl space shrinks.

Yeah.

You just physically can't get that far on.

I mean, if you're gonna get it at this point in time, like if you're gonna build one, put it 6 feet above the ground. Yes.

I mean, big columns, big piers. Yeah. not a crawl space, a walk on your knees space.

Yes.

Makes it a lot easier.

Look, you're gonna, you're gonna get somebody who's more willing to actually go underneath there and do a thorough job. No one wants to crawl around under their bed, get bit by a snake, chased by some rat and spider. Like nobody wants to do that. No, no.

I agree. I'm not, and you bring up a good point. I'm not scared of them per se. I just don't, if you can't get under and inspect it, you don't feel good about what could be going on under there and you not know about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I, I heard something recently from somebody that I really like about stuff that you don't want to do. If you're going to make me do something I don't want to do, I'm going to make you pay something you don't want to pay.

That's a very good point. Some people are willing to pay for it, but you know, that number's going to get, it's like, crap, I should have went more.

Right. Every time, every time I really didn't want to do this.

Yeah, no, I get you. Yeah. So the problem with Formosans is they're a subterranean termite. You know, a lot of times people don't associate them being a subterranean termite because one of the things that they do that our native population of Easterns don't do is build what's called a cart nest. This right here.

Yeah.

And that is where they get above ground. They can suspend themselves above ground if they have a food and water source. and live and thrive above ground. And if that is in a tree or if that's in a house or whatever, in a wall, and you don't know it, well then at a point, the only thing holding your house up is that carton nest material right there. And that's what scares a lot of folks about Formosan termites. And should, absolutely should. And we, where we live here in the Gulf Coast part of Texas, it's very much so a growing concern.

Especially if you, I mean, it can even be like a small roof leak. Anything, you know, as long as there's moisture, they don't need running water.

They just need something that gets wet every now and again. Yep. And so a roof leak is a perfect one. That's the one we see a lot of actually.

Yeah. Like, and like a lot of times when I tell people roof leak, they're like, oh my gosh, like my house is going to fall. I'm like, no, like it can be like a pinhole roof leak.

Yeah.

And if they've just found water, they'll just hang out there.

Yep. Uh, certain things will beget other things. So like you get, uh, you get a squirrel chewing on the soffit.

Mm-hmm.

And then that soffit starts to droop. And then we get one of these sideways rains that we're accustomed to getting. Well, then that soffit will, is like a sponge and that's gonna stay moist for a while. And now you've got a moisture source that are gonna feed them inside.

I mean, especially when you start talking about like roof decking, man. I mean, it's particle board.

Yes. It's particle. That's all it is.

That's all it, it's a, it's a sponge. It's a sponge. You know?

And that's all they need. They don't need running water. They just need a little bit of moisture every now and again.

Yeah.

And that's what's scary about them, you know, and it would, 2 reasons. Um, they can get above ground, start above ground, not know that, you know, you have a problem. And 2, something that they do, um, you know, I mentioned going to that, that class at University of Florida. If I took anything away from that class, it was if you are in a Formosan zone, either Obviously known for most of the zone or on the periphery where it's growing, right where we are now. If you don't do tree inspections, you are doing your customers a disservice.

Oh, really?

The reason being is eastern subterranean termites do not eat live wood. You might on occasions find them in a tree, but it's dead wood of an otherwise live tree, right? It could be a diseased tree. You know, something unfortunately we deal with around here is like oak wilt. So some of that tree might be dying off and they'll eat the dead wood, but they're not going to touch what's still alive.

Yeah.

Formosans will eat a perfectly healthy tree for no other reason than it's a food source to them. And they don't care what species it is. And so why that— They're psychopaths.

That's what it is.

Yeah, they are. They're crazy. And so if you know where we live, we've got big tall oaks, big tall pines, and we're on the coast that is subject to tropical wind and rain events.

Yeah.

So you get termites in that live tree. It kills it because they will eventually kill that tree. And then you get a wind event where when that, if that tree comes down on your house, you're, you're SOL because insurance ain't paying for that.

Oh, really?

Yeah. I mean, you could make the argument that they're not going to because most insurances will go out of the way saying we do not cover termite damage.

That's fair. Yeah.

this tree—

That is very specific in their policies. Yeah.

Died because of termites. You should have done something about the termites or you should have removed the dead tree. And so it's just really bad luck.

Yep.

You know, I, I, that's, that's a situation I worry about.

Have you, I mean, have you ever heard of that happening to somebody?

Not in here, but I've heard it happening in other states where, you know, Formosans have been around or the pressure's been a lot higher.

Yes. Where, where are we starting? I mean, cause I know you mentioned before the show that we're starting to see an uptick in, in like Formosan population. We're like, we're like, where in the US are we seeing that ramp up?

So let me start. I'll start with Texas first. Right. So 5 years ago, you might every now and again get a Formosan call in San Antonio, Austin, Waco, places like that where it was, kind of like our, our drywood example. It might have been imported in.

Right.

Now they're showing up there and they're taking over neighborhoods and they're thriving. So we're seeing them as DFW area has had an uptick in Formosans over the last couple of years. Tyler, I, I know that one well because I dealt with, helped a customer that had a place in Tyler that had Formosans.

Yeah.

Um, so those are areas that have never really had Formosan termite pressure and now they are and it's in an alarming rate. Um, other parts of the country up to like Tennessee, um, up to Virginia, um, where, you know, normally you wouldn't go much past like South Carolina. Like, you know, if we're talking the Mid-Atlantic area, uh, like South Carolina would probably be it. Well, now it's stretched up into They've been found in Virginia. They've now been found over in California. You're not going to have them. I don't know of any in Oklahoma. So, you know, oh, interesting about Texas. I don't know of any in Arkansas. Not to say that they can't be there. Just don't know of any.

But Louisiana, the further you get south in Louisiana, I mean, it's, it's crazy. I've got a couple of slides on a train.

And that's what, that's what like took over New Orleans, wasn't it?

Yeah. Yes. And I've got a couple of pictures in training slides I do where, um, we, we call Formosans the Mother's Day swarmers. You can almost set your watch to it that a week before to a week after Mother's Day is when Formosans are gonna— their peak swarm season. They swarm at night.

I was gonna say, if you want to know if you have them, just watch your streetlights at night.

Yes, they swarm at night. They're attracted to light and they're strong flyers. Um, but in, uh, a couple of slides I've got, it shows if you're familiar with Louisiana, think of, think of, you know, you're watching the news and you see a cutout of your, your area that you're watching the news for. Well, in Baton Rouge and in New Orleans, you got Lake Pontchartrain there. And it looks like a storm everywhere around that area except over Lake Pontchartrain. And what that is, is Doppler radar picking up on the Formosan swarms that obviously they're not in the middle of Lake Pontchartrain, but everything around Lake Pontchartrain.

This is covered up with them.

It's just covered up and it's showing up on Doppler radar like a rain signature, but that is the Formosan swarms. That's crazy. It, it's insane.

So it was pretty bad here this year.

It was. This year was a good year for them.

It looked like it was snowing, like, a couple times.

Yep. I mean, um, all around, both, both sets.

I mean, like, Formosans and, and, you know, Easterns.

Yeah, we had a good year for Easterns even. Yeah, the last couple weren't, but, um, Formosans, I feel like they're just getting I guess it depends on what side of the coin you're on, but, uh, it's either getting worse and worse or better and better. Um, but the Formosans have been uptick. We hadn't had a big eastern swarm, you know, up until this year.

Till this year. Yeah.

Yeah.

It was a big one.

It was. Um, my in-laws, um, used to live over in, um, Summerwood around, uh, Lake Houston.

Yeah.

And that area is just covered up with Formosans.

Yeah.

Um, All the time. So they're growing, they're spreading. Um, they're getting into areas where people, um, people—

Why do you, why do you think they're spreading though?

So there's actually a working theory on this. Um, is it has to do with Hurricane Harvey actually.

Okay.

Um, because if you, it was speaking for Texas, um, if you look where Hurricane Harvey was like the, did the most damage, it was the Coastal Bend region of, of, you know, Texas.

Yeah.

Houston area. And well, in— down to Corpus and everything, which all have Formosans. Well, when those people were going in and cleaning up their houses and doing flood remediation and things like that, they were pulling all of that stuff out and were finding Formosan termites in structures and things that they probably didn't even know they had. And so then that goes and gets set out by the curb. The city comes and picks it up and they take it to the dump. Well, the dump fills up. So then they take it to another dump and then that dump fills up and then they take it to another dump. And then all the, that was a big event, right? A lot of, a lot of debris. And so that's

all that debris has to go somewhere. So it just starts getting dissipated throughout the, the areas around here.

Yeah.

And now it's no coincidence if you look at the life cycle of termites that 4 or 5 years post-Harvey, we're starting to see them pop up in these areas.

Interesting.

And then 3, 4 years post that.

Yeah.

Now they're like taking over. And so, you know, I live in the Montgomery area and lots of, of Formosan termites there.

So essentially what you're saying is they gathered their strength at the dumps that they got redistributed to. That's one of the, one of the theories.

That's one of the workings.

It's not a bad theory.

It's not a bad theory. It's not a bad theory. And so it makes perfect sense. And, you know, you're transporting them, and if you're transporting reproductives, you may knock them back so they're not starting completely over. But they got to start somewhere. It may be a 2 or 3 year climb to get back to that point. But now they've— they're mature, they're swarming again.

It's not like they have lack of cellulose and water at a dump. No.

No. And then anything around that, it just spreads from there.

Yeah. So interesting.

That's how they were introduced here to begin with was through, you know, railroad ties from, um, in the, from the, uh, coastal regions world, like during World War II.

Yeah.

From the Pacific theater and things like that being brought back here and then offloaded at the shore, uh, docks, Houston, Louisiana, Florida, and then spread from there.

That's, yeah. Yeah, people like— well, I laugh about the, uh, the railroad ties. I mean, this thing is sucked in creosote and those boogers will just eat them right through it.

They don't care.

They could give a flying flip.

Nope. Cedar, um, you know, everybody says we get cedar, it's— they don't care.

They don't care.

They don't care.

Yeah, dude, when I, when I bought this place, uh, out there in the pasture, there was a stack of about 30 railroad ties that this guy had, and he, you know, he didn't want to take them with him, and I was like, leave them, I don't care. So I, you know, I started trying to like use them for stuff because they were there. As I took them apart, I mean, it was just, it was just a termite house. It was just like, they were just full of them.

Yep. Burn them.

That's all you can do.

Yep. I mean, at that point it is. And I get it, you know, you, you can repurpose them and use them landscape, uh, barriers and things, but yeah, I don't know. It's not worth it.

No, no. I burned every single one of them.

Yeah.

It stunk.

Oh, that creosote. Ooh, that's a bad smell.

That just smells no good. Yeah, they don't care.

They'll eat right through it.

Yeah. I mean, I hollow it out too, man. I mean, like, you won't even know it till you step on it. Your leg goes right through it.

Like paper thin. And we're talking a railroad tie.

Those things are dense.

Very, very dense.

So, I mean, that's, that's, I think that's one of the things that's worth pointing out about Formosans is how much quicker they eat.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, I, I don't know what, what the multiple is on versus Easterns, but like, it's a lot faster. It is.

Well, and, and so it's a good point. You know, everybody says that they're so much more ferocious and—

Well, their, their colonies are bigger and they eat faster, right?

They do. Yeah. And I don't know how much faster. I don't know if it's truly that they do. I think there is obviously something to that. But when you're talking, you know, a good Eastern— our natives, I keep saying Eastern, we're just talking about our native population of, of subterraneans. $300,000, $400,000 is pretty good size. Formosans can be 10, 12x that. Right. And so it's a numbers game at that point. So not, yes, if they are eating faster, there's 10 times more of them. So, you know, damage happens a lot quicker.

Yeah.

You know, that's the scary part.

Yeah. That, that, I mean, that's just the one I always see is if it is Formosans, one, it's usually, there's usually a leak and they usually go up and then they start eating structural.

Yep.

You know? Yep. And the, you know, whereas Formosans, I'm not Formosans, but subs kind of just tend to like get in the house and just like slowly work their way up. Mm-hmm. I'm not saying every time, but like most of the time it's like they kind of start at the bottom, they'll eat a baseboard or two.

Yeah.

You know, and then they'll start working on those 2x4s.

Yep.

You know, it's like Formosans, it's like, well, let's start at the bottom, but then also let's go up here and like, we'll all meet in the middle.

Yeah. Well, and the thing is too, in, you know, for a long time, And I, I don't know what to think, honestly, but I know what I've seen through experience is for a long time there was like a disagreement between people who lived it every day and like folks in academia of can they truly start a colony above ground? And I think the answer is yes, because unless you go to some of these structures and take it down to the studs and the, the, the, uh, foundation. There's no other explanation than they started in the roof.

Yeah.

And then work their way down, you know, because the entire roof is a carton nest and there's nothing on the lower levels, you know, things like that. It's like, how did they get to that point? You know, other than starting above ground.

I mean, I think the obvious answer is like, if a swarm, if some swarmers landed up there, I mean, like, yeah, why, why is that not a viable option? I mean, like, I mean, like, they fly, they fly, go up high.

Yep. And I think the reason is, is a lot of all living things need food, water, shelter to survive, right? Right. If you're a Formosan termite and you end up in the attic space of someone's house, is there food? Obviously, you know, it's what the house is made out of, right? Is there shelter? It's not ideal, but it's hot, it's dark, it's damp. And the thing is, is they build these little things, right? They eat the wood, they crap it out, and then they build a house out of that. That's, that's what carton nest is.

Yeah.

So they, they build their own structure. What doesn't belong in an attic? Moisture, right? And so most of the time it's probably, it, it could be manmade, but it could be, you know, weather induced. You, but you think of the way of, of house construction is now every air conditioner, every hot water heater, every water softener, is in someone's attic. If you get a drain line on an air conditioner plugged up and it overflows, and then that, that those rafters stay wet, that's the moisture that they need.

Yep.

The soffit, the roof leak, you know, those types of things. And so that's why I think they can truly start above ground is they've got the moisture that they need. That's the limiting factor. They've got that. And Now you got a problem on your hands.

Yeah, you got a problem. Yep. Every time.

Every time.

I mean, it could be as simple as just like a, you know, a gutter that hasn't been cleaned out in a couple years.

Yes. You know, I've gone to houses where there are new trees growing out of the gutters. It's like that. I don't even need to go inside.

No expert. That's not supposed to happen. Nope. So yeah, that's that. If that tree's happy, there's lots of stuff over there is happy.

Yes. So that's the thing with them. So I guess the moral of the story is, you know, I, you know, if you own a, a pest control company, um, you don't necessarily have to be scared of them, but your inspection practices have to be on point. Yeah. It's no longer just walking around making sure there's no mud tubes on the foundation and calling it good.

Yeah.

You need to go in that attic and Look at the, you're not looking for termites even. You're looking for things that would preclude termites. That roof, there's lots of stuff to find in an attic. Absolutely.

Why wouldn't you go look?

So go look at those things. You know, that, that's, I think is what's going to end up biting somebody is poor inspection practices.

Yeah. Yeah, I think so too. But so, and, and sometimes it's not even like, just because I know, I know how this goes. It's not even that you don't know what to do. It's that you are you're, you feel like you're short on time. You feel rushed, you know, and it's like, okay, I've looked at 50 attics. The last 50 had nothing in them. What's the, what's the chance of 51? You know, that's the one that bites you.

That's the one that bites you. So you're right. But, and charge accordingly.

I mean, yeah, of course, time is money.

If you want to do it, charge accordingly. And, and on the other side of that, as a consumer, pay a little extra for the somebody who's going to pay, take that. time to go and look at. Nobody wants to go in the attic in Houston, Texas in August. It's 140, literally 147 degrees.

Yeah.

Let them go do their thing and pay accordingly. Right?

Yeah. I mean, I, I, I'm probably the only exception is if it's, if it's foamed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's another conversation for a different day.

Look, I'm, I'm happy every time I go into a foamed attic.

Oh, yes. Yeah. Okay.

Fair. I'm like, oh, you guys are the best.

That's a fair point.

And I'm like, look, there's a lot I can't see, but I'm happy to be up here.

But yeah, this one ain't so bad.

Uh, well, anything we hadn't talked about, man?

No, I mean, we covered it all. I'm, I'm, I say that I could talk forever. I just, I love this.

Yeah, no, I mean, but, but I mean, like, if, if, if, if there's PCOs out there that have questions about, you know, Corteva, Centricorn, what you guys do, I mean, how do they get ahold of you guys?

Yes. So, you can reach out to me. The easiest way to do that is on centricom.com. There are, that's our, our, our, well, really everything facing website, but part of that is a rep breakdown. There's 25 of us reps that cover the whole US. So depending on where you are, you can find where you are and we've got all of our direct contact information there.

Yeah.

And if you are a consumer and you're looking for somebody in your area to to potentially come out, do inspection, do CentriCon. Well, we can, uh, we have a thing where you can search by your zip code and, and find lots of providers in that area.

Nice.

Yeah.

All right.

Um, but yeah, you can get ahold of us anyway like that. And there's a lot of information there. So I think for me, the thing I like talking about, especially in this area, is just the growing Formosans and, you know, folks that are in that part of the country. It, it, you don't have to like lose sleep over them per se, but Be diligent about it.

Yeah.

I think that's the main thing I'd like to get across more than anything. Yeah.

I mean, I, I know so many people that literally, I mean, like they don't even have a problem, but they're so worried about it.

Yeah.

And it's like, you know, like, look, this is not a big deal.

Yes.

We can manage this.

Yes. And even if you do, you know, that's the other thing is, you know, sometimes you'll, you'll have damage on your house, but it's not to the point where there's any remediation. You're catching it early.

Yeah.

Yeah. There's a little bit of woody. It's fine. Get rid of the problem. Protect yourself going forward. You'll be okay. Right?

Yeah. I mean, look, I mean, that's, that's become a big part of our business is like giving you an honest assessment of the damage.

Right.

You know, because we, we've brought on these contractors that actually understand, okay, that's structural. We need to change that. That's surface damage. We don't need to mess with that.

That's right.

You know, and then our guys can actually go in and, and fix that stuff.

That's right.

You know, and, but like, that's, That's a little bit different than how other people are handling it. A lot of 'em will just be like, well, I know, I know a contractor. I know a handy guy. Like, he'll, he'll come take a look at it. Yeah. I'd much rather put my eyeballs on it and give you my honest assessment and then tell you whether or not it needs to be fixed.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, it's just one-stop shop.

Yep.

You know, that's a good point. And, you know, and it's worked.

Yep.

You know, so anything else, man? No, man.

That's it. I appreciate the time. It's been a lot of fun.

Thank you so much. This is always good to, to sit down and chat about this kind of stuff.

Yeah, it's fun. I enjoy doing it. So thank you for having me.

Yep. Guys, if you have not yet, go ahead and click the subscribe button. Give us a follow on all the things where you want to see the show. You can always watch it on YouTube and Facebook. And until next time, we'll see you later.