That Time We Talked About Owning a Home Business

This is episode number 37 of The Homeowner Show. Whether you're DIY or looking to hire, we're here to help you find the best information and options for you and your home. My name is Kevin Hackett, and here with me is Craig Williams.

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to The Homeowner Show. We are so glad that you could join us today.

Wait a minute. Hey, are you back to the hello, hello, hello?

Yeah, I'm nothing if not a hypocrite.

Okay.

All right, continue on.

Yeah, well, you know, greeting is a greeting, and you're all happy to be here. That's right.

Hello, hello, hello works.

That's right. It's the trinity of welcomes.

There you go.

So if you have not yet, go ahead and hit the subscribe button there in iTunes, Stitcher, whatever weird thing Kevin's using now.

Pocket Cast.

Oh yeah, there it is.

You're supposed to say wherever you get your podcasts.

Wherever you get your podcasts, your organically grown podcast, fresh from the market. But yeah, you can like us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, all the social media things.

Yeah, we're there, we're there. YouTube even.

YouTube.

Yeah, you can see our ugly faces because we ugly. Yes, we are.

Yeah.

So what's going on, man? How you doing?

I'm doing good. Yeah, uh, been doing a few things around the house. Yeah, um, you know, the, the never-ending money pit that is my property.

I think everybody's house on some level There's always something to be done. I mean, that's one of the reasons we do this show.

Yeah. Yeah. Although I will say, I think at one point in time, I would like to actually have a pit with lots of money in it.

That would be wonderful.

I know, right?

Yeah.

Would it be a pit?

Would it be a pit? It'd be a money pit.

Yeah.

I mean, but maybe it's a mountain.

A mountain of money?

That would be better.

Yeah, right?

Maybe it started off as a pit and then became a mountain, and then you have a lot more than you even realize. This is how my mind works.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So for those of you that don't know, this is Chad chiming in here. We hadn't got to introduce him, but he is in the studio with us. So we're excited to get to—

Yeah, happy to be here.

Yeah, thanks, man.

Yeah.

Yeah, the only thing I've really been working on, I just took down an old chain link fence.

Oh, really?

Yeah, and it, man, it's been one of those things that's been staring at me. Like, what's really been like, Like, getting my goat is I'd already taken like the actual fence down. And so I had like this weird, like, kind of like Stonehenge of fence posts in the backyard that were just like this sticking up out of the ground.

Okay.

And it looked like I was, I don't know, like doing like dog obstacle courses or— but it was just ugly.

Are those all the posts that I saw on the trash can outside? That's right.

Okay.

In the recycling bin, no less.

I thought they were just like you'd Tore down like your closet, like the, the rods in your closet were all down.

No, no.

Yeah.

So like I tried to, I was telling Chad before the show, I like, I tried to like jack 'em outta the ground with like a car jack. I tried a house jack. I tried pulling 'em out with the, uh, what's that thing? Your ox?

The mule.

Not the act— it's not an actual mule, but like one of those little four-wheel drive. That'd been cool if I'd have tried it with an actual mule.

Um, yeah, yeah. They weren't, they weren't meant to come out.

No, just leave 'em. Yeah. So I cut 'em.

Oh, okay.

Like with a torch or with like a hacksaw?

No, with, um, like a reciprocating saw.

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. It took like an hour.

Oh goodness.

It was awesome.

Yeah. So much better than pulling them out.

Well, and then I went out and took out my months of frustration with a sledgehammer and just pounded them in the ground so it'd be safer and then covered them up with dirt.

Perfect.

So it was weird though. A couple of them, like when I cut them open, they like had like sludge come out because like the caps had been off. And so it was just full of like mosquito water. Oh yeah.

I think, I mean, I think that's part of the problem too. Like it just adds weight. Yeah. They're, they're terrible.

They're the worst.

They're the worst thing.

Yeah.

Yeah. Nothing natural about them.

You know, they're pretty. There's a new product out that we probably should do a review on. Yeah. Um, I think I mentioned it more than once. It's like, um, it's an alternative to, to concrete for, for posts.

Was this like that expanding foam concrete?

Yes.

Dude, that stuff's crazy.

Yeah. So you, you literally Like, you dig your hole, put your, put your post in, make sure it's level, and then you take this bag and it's not real heavy. I mean, it's just like, you know, 4 or 5 pound bag of stuff. You shake it up to activate it, open the thing, pour it in, and then—

Post.

It's dry, it's, it's wet.

It, it instantly foams up.

Yeah, like expands.

Expands and foams up.

It's insane.

And then, you know—

It's like a brick.

Yeah, exactly. So it's so much easier than concrete.

Yeah, but can you get it out?

That— I, I don't— I mean, the thing is, you're not supposed to get concrete out of your yard.

It's supposed to be there forever.

Yeah, but you know, you buy a house that's used and it— you know, we had a— in our house, which we've sold, but you know, it had a half chain-link fence running across one area where we wanted to put chickens and it had to go. I mean, it had to go.

Yeah.

I think they had a dog there, you know, that they were trying to keep back there, but, you know, for us it had to go.

Yeah.

I mean, I just think like expanding concrete. And you're talking about a job.

Well, yeah, but it's so much easier to do by yourself.

Yes.

I think that's kind of the point.

You probably also have to really have that post like held level.

Yeah.

Like, it's gotta be kind of secure. 'Cause when that expands, it's gonna push that thing all over the place, I would think.

I don't know. We need to do a review.

Yeah, we need to, we need to get a bag of it and see what happens. You know, test it in a bucket.

Yeah.

'Cause apparently if I put things in the ground with concrete here, it ain't coming up.

No.

Which I'm cool with, with my wooden fence, 'cause I can just saw that thing off.

Yeah, no big deal.

Yeah.

Bucket's a good idea.

And wooden fence just looks cooler.

It does. It looks a lot better.

Yeah.

Even if it's like raw branches, it looks better than a chain link fence.

I do like those.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So anyway, we have Chad in the studio for a really good reason. We're gonna be talking about home businesses today, and Chad has a really cool home business. Chad makes custom shoes, uh, for folks on the internet.

Wait, he makes them on the internet?

Yeah.

They're digital shoes.

Digital shoes.

Oh, nice.

digitshoes.com, which might be a real website.

Yeah, that, that could be like That sounds like a Fortnite business right there.

Hey, they do sell that stuff online.

That's hilarious. All right, so—

So we got another business for you to start right there.

Yeah, yeah, digishoes.com. Got it, buying it.

So, so like a real-life cobbler here?

Yeah.

Not like the peach cobbler, like a shoe cobbler?

Yeah, like a traditional cobbler, only, uh, that word doesn't quite suit me.

Okay.

A cobbler, as they were known, were shoe repairmen strictly.

Okay.

So, making a pair of shoes is somewhat more of a process than repairing them. It's really just a different set of skills that are kind of married up at some point during the process, but just a shoemaker, or the archaic term is cordwainer.

Oh, that's nice.

Yeah, cordwainer.

I'm adding that to the repertoire.

Yeah, it's British, and you'll use it like 3 more times in your life.

But I think cobbler is like— because we're so far removed from shoemaking and stuff these days, I think that cobbler just works, and yeah, it kind of covers both.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, well, how'd you get into that? I mean, because— yeah, I, I mean, like you said, there's not that many people out there doing this.

No.

Uh, My wife would probably say that that's why I do it.

Oh.

Because there's nobody doing it.

Okay.

And I've always been a little bit of a rebel that way. But, um, no, I— from an early age, I've just liked to make things. And, um, so while, you know, kids were playing in sandboxes, I was building treehouses. And, you know, later on when kids were Riding bikes or using the remote control cars, I was making birdhouses and cabinets and things like that. So I got into woodworking very young and bothered every maintenance man about what they were doing, like, all the time. Uh, so just always been into that. And as I grew up, I got more serious about it. So I guess when I was 14, my grandfather bought me a set of carving knives because I was interested. I showed some interest in—

He, he bought those for me for Christmas, showed me a couple of skills on like how to do like get the eye shape if you're doing a figure, things like that. And then just sent me off to the races. I, I devoured it. I mean, I did it every day in my parents' garage, just like I sold them in school. Like, you know, at Christmas time and Valentine's, I would have like different figurines or roses or whatever.

Yeah.

So I wore those knives out so much from sharpening that they were unusable. So I, I went to the woodworking store to buy new ones, and they're a specialty item. I, I guess I would— by this time I was like 18, 19, 20, uh, and, uh, no, I was 17 because I was saving up for prom. So I'm, I'm the—

Yeah.

So I, I was there and, uh, you know, these knives were $40 apiece, $80 apiece, some of them $120, $200 apiece.

Wow.

It's like, well, I can't do that. Yeah, I'm a kid with a little weekend job, uh, trying to save up for prom. And, uh, so I was like, man, I'm just gonna— I'm just gonna make them. I'm just gonna make these knives. I know the shape. Like, I can do this. So I got my dad's files, uh, which he wasn't happy about, And, um, and I found some scrap metal from like a brush cutter blade and just started filing down these pieces of metal, which were already hardened. I mean, I didn't, I didn't know anything about knife making then, but I just shaped them and sharpened them, and they were awesome because I did it.

Yeah.

And nobody showed me anything. I didn't read a book. I just kind of did it.

You weren't having to like heat them up or—

No, I wasn't doing any of that. Um, you know, come to find out later, I probably should have, but they were fine for woodworking because you're, you're constantly putting a new edge on woodworking knives. So it's I didn't need them to be high performance, you know, uh, and I wouldn't have known any better then. I didn't know enough, um, technical things. But, uh, anyway, because I was so proud of them, I wanted to put leather sheaths on them, and that got me into leather work. So I went to the leather store, talked to this woman, she picked out all everything I needed to like make sheaths for these little knives, and that— I got hooked because it was

like You could do all of the things with leather that you could do with wood. You could shape it, carve it, but you could also stretch it, get it wet. And if you get it wet with cold water, it acts differently than if you get it wet with hot water. And there's all of these, like, nuances about it that just exploded my world. And I remember thinking then, like, I started looking at leather products then. And I remember thinking then, like, how do you make a shoe anyway? Like, how does that even work? And, you know, at the time, I think I was like still really into sneakers and just thought they were cool. I definitely loved my shoes,

but it was years later after college and everything that I finally got to learn. And what I did is I tried for about a year and just failed. And Like, which really pissed me off. I'm, I'm really good at these kind of things usually.

Yeah.

And like, I can, I can build a car, you know, like I can build an engine. You know, I've done that, right? And, and, you know, you follow a few instructions and boom, you got it, right? Well, shoemaking was different. It was like, there's no instruction on how to do it by hand. We're so far removed from doing it that way. that we just don't know how. So I finally found some reprints on Amazon. I got a couple of books, but they're missing pages.

Oh gosh.

And the terminology for everything is different than we use now. And I just couldn't figure it out. And so I started researching like shoemaking, handmade shoes, like school, like how do you, you know, this was so, this would've been like 2011. 2010, 2011, when I started looking for schools. And, uh, um, finally found a woman who would take me. She was in a small town called Jerome, Arizona, and there was a state park close by. So I spent the better part of a summer out there, um, camping out at the state park and, and taking lessons with her. So I took a few classes and was hooked. It was everything that I thought it would be when I finally, like, put everything together, but I still wasn't good at it. So I spent the next 2

years, like, really trying to hone it. So I did a little bit every day. I did some kind of shoemaking every day for like 2 years. That was like the goal. And then finally I started making products that I thought were really unique and like high quality and you just couldn't find anywhere. And I thought maybe I should sell these. It wasn't the plan, but—

It wasn't the plan to start a business?

No, I always had a plan to start a business of some kind, right? I think that's always been in my head, but I didn't know that it would be shoemaking necessarily.

Gotcha.

You know, the thing about like wood carving is it's really novelty. Uh, it's, it's a novelty, and, and you make these little figurines, people like it, it's cute, it's fun. But unless you're doing like really big work or you have some kind of real, like, unique thing going on, it's just novelty at the end of the day. People can take it or leave it. It's not a need. But shoes are like a way for me to have an art form that I'm, that I'm, you know, that I'm pursuing and also meet a need.

Yeah.

So like, people need shoes, people need good shoes. Some people need really specific shoes. Uh, and I get to, I get to not only create something beautiful, but like give you something that you can really use, like ultimate in function, you know?

Yeah.

Ultimate quality, ultimate in function, and hopefully ultimate in art.

Right.

So it started as a hobby, really?

Yeah.

And then transformed into something that, uh, was much bigger. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

Awesome.

And you were, you were, when you started, I mean, And I know you said you weren't intending to start a business, but this is— you were doing this all out of your house.

Yeah.

So when I first started, uh, actually for sale, I was renting a space in the Heights and, uh, with 2 other guys. And there was a room that was like kind of a music room and kind of a storage room. And I just moved things to the side and I basically set up shop right there. And that was like, you know, that was like really DIY. I mean, I think I was using like a drum sander attachment on a drill press, you know?

Uh-huh.

So I was like really like doing a lot of workarounds to try to be able to fit in there as well as like somewhat have a real process of, you know, of making them and not be totally, completely like, hand-sanding everything with my fingertips.

Yeah.

Wow. So, yeah. So that was the start.

Yeah.

And then later, later I got married. We had a small apartment and I rented out a studio space in the warehouse district of Houston, shared a like 400-square-foot space with a woman who made clothing. I think it was like $150 a month, so it was super cheap.

Yeah.

Uh, and then we bought a house, and then I was like, well, I'm not paying for this anymore. I'm, I'm getting a house with a garage. And, uh, that was always the intention for the garage of our house that we bought, was for me to move my shop into there.

Okay.

And then we did.

Awesome.

Yeah.

And was that sort of like a— I mean, most people, I mean, like, well, at least not in Houston, it seems like garages are for cars.

Yeah.

Yeah. But like, was it sort of like a natural thing to operate your business out of the garage? What was, or what might've been like a struggle with having it there as opposed to where you'd been before in like a warehouse?

Well, I mean, I think in most ways it was easier, but You know, when you start thinking about taxes and like what you're allowed to use the property for, things get a little mushy in Houston.

Sure.

But we just did it.

Yeah.

You know, you just figure it out. I don't really know what kind of details to add to that, but we just figured out that it could be a business, but it couldn't be a, it couldn't be a, like a retail space.

Couldn't have people parking and coming in. Right.

Yeah. So it was a home business, you know?

Yeah.

And it happened to have like a shop there, you know, instead of just an office, like most home businesses probably.

Yeah.

Which I also had an office, you know, so inside we, we, we used, that was my office space. Even though I did most of my office work in the shop. But it was rough at first. I mean, you know, it was just bare bones garage. There was no insulation. There's a few rotted spaces in the sheathing on the outside and just around the perimeter. So, uh, at first I was working in there and I spent a Houston summer working in there and it was killer, man. I mean, it was—

Dude.

It was so hot.

Yeah.

So hot inside of that garage. And so, you know, made a few sales, put a little money aside. Actually, like where I was working, I had a full-time job at the time and where I was working, they were throwing away, they were doing renovations or throwing away a bunch of insulation and—

Oh, okay.

So I got probably $600 worth of insulation for free.

Nice.

Just because I was willing to get in the dumpster and Pull it out.

Yeah.

Get it and then take it home. Some of it had water on it. Some of it wasn't usable, but most of it was good. And it ended up being more than I needed.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

That's awesome. Yeah.

So what are some of the things that you would say are a pro or a con about running a business out of your home versus running it out of really any other commercial space?

Yeah.

I think when it's your home and you have a family, It's nice to be close.

Okay.

So if your baby wakes up, it's not just your wife's duty to go get the baby. You can stop what you're doing and, you know, so I was doing it at night, right? So when she was sleeping, I just had the monitor so my wife could sleep. I had the monitor in there. If I heard her cry or whatever, I just go in there and handle it and then I'd go back to working.

Okay.

So that's, that's huge, I think, for you to be able to be close to your house and have those advantages. What's bad is that you just never leave.

Hmm.

You're at your house all day and you don't, you don't have any real dividing points of your day. You just work through lunch. I mean, you know, I have a shop now, so I go somewhere so I actually can take— I take a lunch break and I have like a real day. But before, it's like I just eat dinner in there. Um, you know, whatever. But you could also have a beer. Yeah, because you're at home and it's your garage. So sure, there's— that's an advantage, right? Have a beer or two while you're working.

And, and you can kind of keep the space exactly the way you want it. You don't have anybody else kind of, right, helping you decide what that's going to look like. Even, even if you're the only tenant, you still got a landlord most of the time kind of dictating a little bit, right?

Right.

Yeah, no, definitely. I think if you're gonna have a home business, it should be your home. You should be the homeowner.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, you can make decisions about how you want it. You know, we did it— I did it in such a way that it could be taken down, you know, and everything in the garage could be adjusted so that if potential buyers— we weren't planning to sell as quickly as we did, but all of that could have been taken out easily. And also I did a really cool build-out where there was a waiting room. So if people were coming to get measured, they could sit. And I had a little drum studio because I was going to start teaching drums again. So that was sectioned off in the garage as well. You know, the goal has always been to get away from the

full-time jobs, like, you know, making everybody else rich.

Yeah.

And, you know, not having too many advantages myself. Um, and like just having control. Like, I've never been money motivated, but I'm, I'm time motivated. Like, I, I want to make more time. Like, that's the idea. It's like, how can I get more time in my life versus how can I get more money?

And you're not making a commute at this point either. I mean, well, just walk into your garage.

Yes, you walk into your garage, low overhead.

Yeah.

which I think is, you know, key to new businesses, any business, you know, if you can't control that, it will get away from you very quickly. Any profit you thought you were making is just gone.

Hmm.

I think, I think that's one of the biggest lessons I've learned. It's like, I just don't spend, I don't spend money where it doesn't need to be spent. So even now I have a 150-square-foot space. It's a room. It's basically bedroom size. It's like 10 by 12 or 11 by 12 or something, whatever 150 square feet is. And I have like 6,000 pounds of equipment in there.

Wow.

So there's no space except to work, you know, that's That's it. Yeah, there's no, there's no sitting area. It's not fancy. I did replace the flooring because it had like this nasty green AstroTurf in there. So I put— so I found like some, um, like a sale item, uh, you know, wood laminate floor. I think it cost me like 65 cents a square foot, which is crazy.

Wow.

So I just put it in, it snapped in. You don't have to do any leveling with it either. Just put down a, a little, uh, padding subfloor.

Okay.

And it takes it. It's great, great easy stuff. Yeah, highly recommend.

Huh, very cool.

Awesome.

Yeah, so, um, I mean, definitely whenever it comes to just ease of access and, and those sorts of things, it's good. But one of the things you mentioned with taxes, and, and I realized that That from state to state, it's gonna vary. And, um, I mean, even from, from, I mean, Texas, we live in a very large state. So Texas are different, different places.

Yeah.

But, um, were there tax advantages or disadvantages to working out of your home?

Yeah, no, huge advantages. You know, your garage, if it's connected to your house, I don't think detached garages count. But if it's connected to your house, it's part of your square footage and it's like totally deductible.

Yeah.

And it's like, you know, 20, 30% of your home sometimes, the size of it. You know, if you have a, you know, 400-square-foot garage, which most, you know, 2-car garages with any sort of laundry or any kind of space to store things in it is gonna be at least that big.

Yeah.

So I had that whole space that was deductible plus the office inside, which was another 100 and something square feet. And yeah, while I didn't pay rent, it's like rent is a great tax deduction.

Yes.

But while I didn't have that, I had that space. So much of my house was used for the business. You know, if it were just me running a digital business where it was like, you know, I was selling software, all I would have is that little 115-square-foot space. And it wouldn't be that advantageous for taxes. But, you know, taxes are taxes. I mean, you really want to be making money. You know, you don't want everything to be you trying to get out of them. You really just want to have profit. And like, that's okay if you have to pay taxes, like you just pay them. Profit's better than being in the hole.

Yes.

Yeah, absolutely. Definitely.

So yeah, more revenue tends to always be the solution to those.

Yeah, except that most people, when they have more revenue, they just spend it. They spend it.

Yeah.

So the idea is like, I have more revenue coming in from the business now than ever, but my spending is like, I like try to keep it the same. So even though I do have more material costs, like I still work on those relationships, I still try to get those cheaper, but I keep my rent low and I keep my maintenance low. Like everything I do, I try to do it all in-house. Anything that I know won't kill my day or my efficiency, I try to do in-house.

Well, and I would imagine on some level, you mentioned this as a pro, but you mentioned just the ease of being near your family. Are there opportunities where boundaries are an issue though? I mean, opportunities where it's like, no, I've got to go work.

Oh, yeah. So my wife would come out and try to talk to me about the weekend and, you know, she'd catch me in this weird state where I'm like working. And I don't know how you guys are, but when I'm working and I think for a lot of men, like, that's what I'm focused on.

Yeah.

And it's hard for me to talk about other things. I almost have to turn it off, like turn the switch off. Like, wait, what do you want to talk about? And then she's, you know, 45 minutes later, we're talking about what we're doing. And I was like, well, I didn't get anything done tonight. I guess I need to be in here again tomorrow. You know, it was supposed to be a movie night or whatever, but I gotta get this stuff done.

Right.

So, you know, and that was, it was rough, man. I mean, honestly, I had a 3-hour daily commute to my full-time job. I was doing 50 hours a week plus at that job. So I'd leave the house at 6 in the morning. I'd get home at 6:30 or 7. And make dinner. Usually that was, that's usually one of my jobs is to make dinner, prepare food is one of the things that I do and try to connect with my wife for a little bit and put my baby to bed. And then I'd go to work till midnight.

Wow.

And that was, that was every day for a little over a year, except for Saturdays. I tried to keep my Saturdays open for my family.

Yeah.

And I worked on Sundays. I worked at a church on Sundays, so. That was most of that was taken up too. At least half of my Sunday was taken up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Which, you know, the church thing was just, you know, a nice—

That's when you're digging.

Yeah, it was a nice extra money. You know, we used it for vacation and stuff, but then we had a baby and then our mortgage went up 'cause our taxes and everything, you know, the escrow had to balance out. Then we needed it.

Yeah.

And then it was like, oh, I have to do all of these things now for us to like keep living the way we were accustomed to.

Yeah. You know, so, so did you find it to be— I mean, because right now you're not using your home anymore. You, you—

Right, we sold it.

You've sold your house.

Yeah.

So because of that reason, not necessarily because you don't want to have a home run business, right? It's kind of out of necessity. But yes, do you notice a a difference in the business from home versus the business that you don't own? Just kind of the ease of doing your job. And do you notice any difference as far as just the day-to-day functionality of what you're doing and how that runs?

I mean, if I could choose right now, I would do it out of my home.

Okay.

it makes it a little funky for client relations because they come to your home and you have a family and you don't want to just invite them into your house necessarily unless you know them. But, uh, so that was always something. But I always just offered to meet people at bars. I'd buy them a drink, take their measurements, we'd talk there, talk it all out there, and then I would go make it. So it still works out, you know, there's always workarounds. But I like being close. I mean, I love making shoes. I, I can be running on like, I could be averaging 3 hours of sleep a night for a week, go out, start to make shoes and be completely like

energized and alive.

Mm-hmm.

So it doesn't matter to me so much where I work, but I love being at home because I can— there's no commute. There's no— there's no, like, everything's direct. So if I need to go to the leather store and buy some leather, I just come back home. You know, if it's lunchtime, I eat lunch, then I go work. But if you're— if you're out, it's like, oh, well, if I wait and eat back at the shop, I'm going to lose even more time. So let me just eat in the car.

Mm-hmm.

And I know it's weird, but, uh, I think, I think having something out of your home like that, like a physical shop out of your home, is a good thing. I think it's just overall like a really good thing. And again, overhead's low. I mean, you're paying the mortgage already, you know, so you're not paying anything extra.

Sure.

And you're getting a deduction.

Yeah, it's a win-win. Yeah.

I want to go back for a second because I don't want to miss the opportunity To ask you about meeting people in bars to measure their feet.

Yeah.

Everybody thought that was normal. Everybody that watched you from afar was like, I know exactly what he's doing.

Yeah, I kind of want to be the guy across the room like, what is going on over there?

Yeah, yeah, no, it's hilarious.

And he bought him a drink first.

So I was, I was, uh, yeah, let me, let me buy you a drink and let me check out your feet.

And he keeps coming back every Friday. It's weird.

Yeah, it's even worse when it's a female client. It's like, seems even more intimate somehow. But, um, you know, yeah, I usually chose bars that had an out— an outdoor patio, and it was not usually at— on a Friday or Saturday night. It was usually like a Monday or Tuesday night, you know. Yeah, when I was getting off work, I was driving home, it's like, hey, can you meet me here? We'll do this, we'll have a drink, we'll talk about what you want, get to know each other a little bit, and then I'll measure your feet, you know. So yeah, it's— measuring feet is always a little bit of a vulnerable thing, right?

Like, people are sensitive about that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, I do it all the time, but so it's, it's normal for me. But you know, somebody goes, well, are they— are my feet normal? You know, like, people don't know if their feet are nice or not, you know. They're like A little self-conscious.

Yeah, that's why we put shoes on them.

Yeah, but nobody's feet are normal, are they?

No, no, no.

I mean, that's one of the— I, I would assume that's one of the reasons that your business actually works, is because beyond the fact that you're making a superior product.

Yeah.

As far as the, the materials, I mean, you're—

Materials and construction.

Sure.

Make it superior for sure.

Absolutely. I mean, just, you know, real quick rough shot, uh, the the lifespan of one of your pairs of shoes?

Oh, they're, they're 20, 30 years.

Okay. Yeah.

All right. And a lot of people are getting like 1 or 2 out of their normal shoes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If you're lucky, right?

Yeah.

So obviously you've got a superior product because of superior materials and workmanship, all those sorts of things, repairability, all that kind of stuff, right? Um, but I mean, everybody's foot's different, and so you're able to put someone in a shoe. Yeah, that literally makes their— I mean, the, the thing that they, that they travel on.

Yeah, it's important.

More comfortable, right?

Yeah, not only more comfortable, but just safer.

Okay.

You know, some of the lower back pain and things that we have come from our shoes not fitting us well. And matter of fact, most— I would say 90% of the comfort of a shoe is not like how much neoprenes in it, but like how well they fit. Um, you can have any heel height you want, none or, or, you know, 4 inches, but if they fit well and the construction is good to like hold your foot solid, uh, it's safe. It's safe to walk on long term. And, uh, you know, no amount of padding is gonna change that if it's wrong.

if it's bad.

And, um, a matter of fact, the padding usually wears out in 6 or 8 months, so you don't even get the advantages of that anymore. Whereas leather components, they just— I mean, it was skin. It was skin at one time, and, uh, it's just good. It's the best thing for making shoes.

Hmm.

It's the best thing for a lot of things, but for shoes specifically, you can't beat leather. You can't.

Well, and that's why I think a lot of people would even say— I mean, you know, here in Texas, lots of people own boots, right?

Yeah.

And, um, I mean, a lot of people that wear boots would tell you, I mean, once you get them broken in, which is, you know, not too long of a period, 2 to 3 weeks maybe.

Sure.

Um, then once you get them worn in, I mean, broken in, you, you don't want to wear anything else.

You want to keep them because they fit so well, they feel good.

Uh, they've conformed to your foot. Yeah, in a lot of ways. And so, and that's a boot that's also pre-made versus what you're making that's custom. Um, but yeah, it's a similar thing because once you, once you get a pair of, of, uh, shoes or boots or whatever it is, um, that fit really well, that's what you want.

Yeah, yeah, it is. It's hard. Um, you know, my wife— I'm just using this as an analogy— but my wife has Fridays off now with her new job, and which is one of the reasons why we sold the house and everything, but Uh, there's no way she could ever go back to working on Fridays if she leaves this job, right? She can't. It's too cush. It's too good.

It works.

So it's the same thing. You go to like buying shoes the way that I do it, you just don't want anything else after that. It kind of spoils you. It's a good mattress is the same, same way, right? Um, and just as like a You know, probably you're in one or the other, your mattress or your shoes, most of the day. So those are 2 things you probably should spend money on or shouldn't be afraid of spending money on.

Yeah, you know, I actually was having this conversation not too long ago. My wife and I were looking at mattresses and I was looking specifically at a Sleep Number. They're significantly more expensive than others. And I told her, I was like, well, On average, um, you know, they say you should have 8 hours of sleep every night. Most people don't, but even adults are getting, you know, between 6.5 and 7.5 hours of sleep every night.

Yeah.

And so you're, you're literally talking about a third of your day, roughly.

Yep.

A third of your day is spent laying on this thing.

Right.

And so, you know, you're, you're talking a difference in $500 versus $3,000, right?

Yeah.

We'll go out and spend $50,000 on an SUV—

I know.

—that we keep for 3 years and then turn around—

Use an hour out of the day.

Absolutely.

Unless you do what Craig does, then you're—

Then you're in it all the time.

It's my office.

Right. But that's the thing.

I mean—

You're the guy that should be spending 80 grand on a truck. I know.

And he doesn't.

Not that you don't, but like you're— yeah.

Yeah, but that's it. It's a similar concept, right? It's like you, you hit the nail on the head there. It's like you're— the thing that really affects so much, it affects, uh, your, your sleep patterns, right? Affects so much, and you're not willing to spend the money on it because you think it's so expensive.

I know, it's crazy. It's crazy.

Same thing with your feet. Yeah, yeah.

I guess we're just used to looking at things, and it's not necessarily a bad thing, but we, we— so much of our world is marketed to us as an idea of what we want our lives to look like or the persona we wanna have. And not enough attention is spent on quality. Matter of fact, people can look at my shoes and say, oh, that's quality. They can tell.

Okay.

But they don't really know. People don't really know what quality is, myself included. And I mean, I know shoes because that's what I do, but I couldn't necessarily tell you the difference between a Gucci shirt and an Old Navy shirt. Because I do sewing and stuff, I can, I can, I can, you know, somewhat—

You do stitching, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. So I know some, but I don't really know intuitively what's better quality because it's not talked about. It's not— there's no education on it.

We don't have a lot of measuring for it.

Yeah.

How to measure it.

Yeah.

It's tough. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's— yeah. Instead, it's sold as a, as a lifestyle. And if it lines up with what I believe or with how I see myself, then I buy it. It doesn't matter as much. I mean, it's got to function to a point, but it's not the thing I really know about. And I don't think that's a bad thing, but I do think it is a bad thing that we don't know what quality is. Yeah, that, that's not something we know anymore.

Yeah. And it is interesting too, because like, I think that a lot of what we see as quality and things that are more expensive, maybe the exact same product line, it just offers more features. Yeah, right. Like, there's more buttons on it. It does more stuff. Yeah. And then so they can charge more because it's got more features on it. Yeah. And, and I mean, you're wearing a pair of your shoes right now. They're just— they're simple.

Yeah, very simple.

There's nothing super complex about them.

Nothing. And that's, you know, part of that is just to keep the price down, or the base price down anyway. Um, I mean, I think simplicity is always good. Uh, because it functions, you know, you don't, I don't have to, I'm not programming these shoes to help me walk. They just do their job, you know.

It's for that digital line network.

Right. So that's important, I think. But I, you know, I love extravagance too. I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with having something you want. You know, I keep eyeballing this '88 4Runner that's been repainted brown with this like orange leather interior, which may not sound that great, but it is amazing. It's extravagant. but it's also just, it's not, it's not so far out. It's not a Lamborghini, right? Right. And I don't, I don't want that, but it's like, man, I love that car. Like, one day I'm gonna have one like that and just enjoy driving it.

Yeah. I feel the same way about International Scouts.

Yes. That's, that's—

there you go. That's mine right there. Right. So that, I mean, I don't wanna, I don't want it to like drive every day. I wanna take it out on Sunday once a month or something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Just cool cars.

Yeah, it's great.

I think you actually, you raised something that I think is kind of interesting. You were talking about the reason people buy things. And one of the things that I've just found really bizarre, one of the reasons I see people buying things is because they find themselves lining up ideologically with the producer of said product.

Absolutely. I mean, Chick-fil-A.

Yeah.

Big time.

Yeah, I mean, that's a great example of that where you're like, you know what, well, if you line up with Chick-fil-A values, you go buy chicken sandwiches and you know what I mean?

And in their case, even if you don't line up, you still go buy their sandwiches.

Because when you've got a good product, you've got a good product.

They know what they're doing.

Yes, they do.

Yeah. Um, and I'm, I, I'm failing to come up with an example in my head, but I, I've seen it a thousand times where it's like, well, this person is this, and like everyone's like, well, you know that this guy does this and he believes this, so let's all go support his business.

Right.

Um, that's just like, I mean, like, it's a little bit too intimate. Like, it's like It's, um, yeah, I don't mean to cut you off. No, no, no. Yeah, I know. But yeah, it's like, I don't, I don't think that that necessarily needs to be the reason. I think that that can be a good thing too. It's like, oh, this lines up with what I believe. I want to support that. I think that that's really, that comes from a good place.

Yeah, it's noble. Yeah.

And, um, you know, you ought to be thinking about, is it a superior product? Is it gonna, is it gonna, is it gonna suit my needs? Yeah. Well, I think the answer—

I think where I, where I was coming at it from is like, I— because you're talking about like quality and like whether or not you can recognize like, like a good shirt from a bad shirt, a good shoe from a bad shoe. And what I see is people buying bad— I mean, in theory, buying bad shoes. Yeah. Because this person who made the shoe—

Oh, right.

Believes this. Yeah. And so like, right, being completely uninformed about the product that we're purchasing, but we're just purchasing it because we agree with them. Yes. All right. And it makes us feel good about it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then like things like Tom's Shoes.

But you know, we want to feel good.

Yeah, sure. Yeah. I don't have any problem feeling good.

Yeah. I mean, I agree with you. I'm— I think—

Do it all the time.

I think it is such— it is such a— it is such a selling point just to feel good. I mean, if you just say— even if my slogan was like, boots that make you feel good, like it'll sell.

Sure. Yeah.

You know, do you have a slogan? No, I don't think so.

No, we can, we can work on that.

Yeah, I'm working on a one-liner.

Really good for your feet. That should be it.

Yeah, yeah. No, I need help in that department. I'm, I'm a maker. That's, that's my gift in life, making things and teaching people how to make things or do things. That's, that's my gift. All right. Um, marketing is not, but I'm learning, getting it.

Well, that brings up a really important question, and, and that is like, have you found that The more driven we are toward online shopping and social media and those sorts of things, have you found it easier to work out of your home because you don't need to be visible?

Absolutely.

In a retail location?

Yes. Yeah. I mean, the internet basically rules the way we live now. Yeah, I can't imagine trying to do this in the '80s. I don't know what I would do. I'd have to be on like the busiest street of my city and like be the loudest person there. And that very much goes against my personality.

Yeah.

I'm a 5 on the Enneagram. But—

Well, you know the strategy back then, right? I mean, like, I mean, like the social media of the day was to call yourself AAA Custom Shoes.

Right. So you're the first one in the—

First one in the Yellow Pages.

Phone book, right.

I mean, that was the— that was—

Which is why we have all those businesses that are AAA or AAAA or— Yeah, right. That was a huge strategy. Yeah. It just allows me to get in front of people who are already interested. You know, the 80/20 rule works everywhere in all things except for in the digital realm. And when you take things digital, something that's a niche or a niche, however you say it.

Uh, I'm confused on that one too. I don't know which one's right.

Yeah. And I go back and forth myself.

I kind of test it with people sometimes to just kind of see if they'll nod at me.

You're like, I don't know if you noticed, but in the last episode you said it twice and said it differently both times.

And no one said anything.

No, I thought it. And now I'm so glad it came back up. So now people will go back and re-download last week's episode just to hear—

And hear my little test.

Yes. Yeah. Sorry to really derail there for a minute.

No, this is probably the best part of the podcast.

No.

So I think something that's a niche can really thrive digitally because, you know, versus, you know, if you had your product in a store you fight to get in there, right? And then once you get in there, you got to be able to have a certain amount of sales for them to keep you or to keep you at the same presence that you fought for. But you go online and now there's millions of people that see your thing, whatever it is that you do.

Yeah.

And they come to you, right? You know, like, you know, I go into a coffee shop, I'm going to order coffee. That's what I'm there for.

Yeah.

You don't have to do anything else. So they come to me because they see, you know, there's ways to bring people, more people in to get to see things and we can discuss that. But, but for the most part, like if they're contacting me, it's because they're ready to do something, you know?

Yeah.

And I don't have to be a total salesman. I can educate, I can explain. I can do the things to like set their mind at ease, but yeah, I don't have to, you know, convince them of, you know, whatever superiority. You know, they're gonna know that from my story. Sure. From following along.

Well, and that really plays into what Craig was talking about, was, um, on some level, story sells. Yeah, story sells. Story's the thing. And so, you know, it's—

Which I'm learning, I feel, still.

Yeah, I think— well, I think the world at large is learning that story sells. I mean, we even see now some of the most successful commercials are— you don't necessarily even know what they're selling until 59 seconds into the minute-long commercial.

Right.

Right?

Yeah, yeah.

And Budweiser really did this very well a few years ago on the Super Bowl ad that they had. There was just a story. It made people cry. And it hit— everybody remembered it, right?

Hit a chord.

It did. And so, um, you know, a story sells, and it goes back to what Craig was saying about, you know, you find yourself resonating with a certain ideological something about whatever product it is, somebody's story. And so that is a whole lot easier to convey online than it is from a storefront, which is really counterintuitive. Absolutely. Because I mean, you, you, you think more visibility on some level, you know, you drive down that street every single day. So, so visibility, I see it all the time. But the reality of it is you, you can't put 3 or 4 or 5, 6 paragraphs about yourself and about your story on a storefront, but you can on a

webpage. Yeah. And if you can get people to navigate there, right, then your business can thrive differently simply because people buy into that. And I think that's something that a home business could really benefit from. Versus a retail store.

Yeah, I think it works better or it's translated better online unless you have an endless budget because, you know, let's say you're an electronics company. Well, you sell at Walmart, you sell at Best Buy, you sell at Target, you know, well, who are you? You know, like now you're whatever those companies say you are.

Yeah.

So in order for you to really hold on to your values or your persona as a company, your story as a company, you have to be louder than those companies. That's why Apple is successful. They understand that. So they can be anywhere, but you still recognize what's at the heart. of Apple.

Their brand still holds true. Yeah, it's in Best Buy, right?

No matter where it's sold or whichever cellular company. Yeah, but a lot of companies aren't that way. A lot of companies are just like, oh, it's there. I mean, I got— I have a Vizio TV. Yeah, I don't know anything about Vizio except that it was a scratch and dent item somebody returned and I got $300 off. Right. I took it. Yeah. Doesn't, doesn't mean anything else to me. Right. It's great picture. Sure. But they all are.

Yep, they all are.

Yeah.

Yeah, so something has to separate—

Someone at the internet— someone on the internet just got really mad at you.

I know.

Are you kidding?

Apparently they make some of the better ones out there right now. I don't know for sure.

I have no idea, but I know that somebody's probably just fuming.

Yeah, I know. I apologize. Don't apologize for that.

And Samsung's knocking at your door. Yeah, yeah, right. You're right. On some level, you have to figure out a way to separate yourself from the pack. I guess one of the last things—

we're going to have to wrap it up here before too long—

but one of the last things I'm really curious about, and I think some of our listeners are probably curious about this, too, is we're talking about what you do and that you provide a superior product. I mean, it costs more. Your cost alone is going to tell someone—

Yeah.

There's something different about these shoes, right? Um, and you're doing them from, from, you know, you're hand sewing all of these.

Yeah, hand stitch.

So tell me, tell us, on, on all of our listeners too, what makes your product different? Or why, why should I buy a pair of shoes from you?

Oh man, that's a really long conversation.

We're gonna wrap this up, I think. Um, Can you give me like the Reader's Digest version?

Yeah, well, you know, it's real materials in and out that last, and it's, it's been tested. You know, the shoes that I have on, I made in, like I said, 2012, so they're coming at 7 years old right now. I wear them nearly every day, and they still work the same way as day one. And they will not break down for a long period of time. I mean, I can probably hand these down to my kids.

Wow.

All I do is replace the very bottom rubber pieces. I just take them off, replace them, and I'm ready to go for another, you know, 2 years, a year and a half, 2 years, whatever, you know, wear and tear you put. But it really is true process and true like quality ingredients, those things coupled together to make a superior product. That's why it's better. Other than that, it's all of the other things we've been discussing. It's, it's, it's knowing who you're buying from. It's knowing that it's great. It's knowing that I got your back if anything goes wrong. It's knowing that like, hey, this is an investment in your health. Uh, it's all of those other little things that don't— that you, you know, the process and the materials never add up to. Yeah, those are all

way bigger. Um, and that, I mean, that's what makes it worth it. Yeah, in the end.

Do you find you have repeat customers?

Yeah.

Which is interesting because you're sitting here telling me you got, well, 25, 30-year shoes on.

Yeah, yeah, you buy the boots, then you buy the shoes, and then you're like, well, I don't want to wear black with everything. So you gotta hit the brown ones. Yeah. Or recently a guy got part green, part black. Some guys are getting rough out, so they're reversing the side so that it's the rough side of the leather instead of the finished side.

I was telling you, I like those, the cow, the hair on toe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so those ones I did on my women's last. Yeah. Thinking that that would be like something women really want. Yeah. Like every man that sees them is like, oh, I love that. Yeah, it's cool. Yeah.

It's, it's, I mean, I mean, especially here in Texas. I mean, like, that's everywhere, but like, it's just a cool feature. I, I'd never seen that on a shoe before.

Yeah, yeah, thanks. Um, I think it's really interesting. I try to— that's the other side of it, I think, is, um, you know, when you're small like me, you can innovate, and you get too big, you can't do that. And so you can get really unique shoes. Yeah. And, and like, it's one thing to be unique, it's another thing to like have the level of quality, you know, coupled with that uniqueness.

Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Well, that's all really good. Um, Craig, do you have any other questions?

No, we just, uh, what, tell us the name of your business.

Yeah, the business is called Standard Handmade.

And you don't just make shoes either?

I don't just make shoes, but everything I do is custom or made to order, made to measure. So if you just want a bag, you get a bag that you want, um, and you know that you can trust it for the rest of your life. You want a wallet, same deal. You want shoes, great. That's what I really, really love and get into, um, just because I think there are enough leather workers these days that you can get a bag or a wallet from. Um, you know, try out shoes now.

Yeah, that's the— didn't I see you make like a, like a pocket watch cover or something like that recently?

I don't know.

No, maybe. I thought I saw like Watch pocket or something that you put up on?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No. So a guy had a wristwatch that he had when he bought it. He had the company ship it to me without the, without the wristband on it. Yeah. So it still had the brackets around the watch and he wanted me to make it into a pocket watch with leather.

Oh, that's cool.

And it ended up being kind of cool. Yeah, I really liked it. It was, it was difficult. That was one of the more difficult things I've done, actually, because getting it to look completely circular, even with those brackets around it and like kind of hiding those brackets and then also getting to see the whole, the whole, you know, face because there's, there's not a big border on that. You know, we make very sleek electronics now where like the whole face is meant to be seen. And so getting it to fit there and actually stay and also be able to like turn it on and off and adjust the date.

Yeah.

It was tricky. Yeah, super tricky.

Cool.

Yeah. All right, well, uh, I think it's, uh, time to move on to our next segment, which we call the Final Four. The Final Four. Yeah, so just 4 questions we ask all of our guests. Pretty easy. Yeah, so we'll just get into these real quick. Number 1, what's the must-have tool you won't leave your house without?

Yeah, um, is, is hammer the answer for that? No, I'm just kidding. It could be. No, honestly, I have a, I have a pocket knife that Um, has opened up every one of every box that I've ever opened since I was 12.

Wow.

And, um, I keep it on me all the time.

You got it on you now? I do, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Let's just, uh— oh, actually, I think I lied.

Did you leave it in the car?

No, I didn't take them out of my pants I was wearing yesterday, so I don't have them with me today. Okay, well, I have an excuse. I mean, I was up at 5 in the morning, so I just didn't— I didn't grab them. I didn't grab it.

Excuse me.

But it's a little— it's an old-timer 3-blade, you know, the classic thing. I remember those.

Yeah, uncle gave it to me when I was 12 or something.

And I've just always kept it.

And, um, you know, it has, uh, it has, you know, acted as a screwdriver and a carving knife and, um, a saw and, um, a chisel. I mean, it's, it's been a lot of things over the years, but I, I still have it. It's, it stayed. I mean, it's probably $20. Yeah, but, but it's great.

Cool. Yeah, awesome.

Number 2, what's a job you walked away from Yeah, um, outside of the business, because there's a lot of things I walk away from, uh, so in my home, like a project.

Yeah, that'd be perfect.

Yeah, uh, we were renovating our bathroom. I was renovating, and, uh, I was gonna do it all. And, uh, I started removing the tile, and, um, that was a project.

Yeah.

Then I opened up the walls and I found mold.

Oh.

I also found an ant pile, Craig. Um, goodness.

I know a guy.

It had climbed up, um, I want to say 3 sections, you know, where studs were.

Yeah.

From ground floor all the way to the ceiling. And they got in through the bricks on the outside. There was a— the, the sheathing that's between the bricks and the wall was busted up in one section, and they were getting in right there. Yeah, just— yeah, they brought dirt in and set it in the, in the, um, in the, uh, insulation.

It's more common than you think, man.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's crazy. So after I got all of that straightened out, I had to put new studs in that were rotted from the ants and from the mold. Um, got all of that stuff taken care of and totally gutted and, and in a good place to start from. I was like, I'm done. It's like, that's enough.

That's all the work you anticipated doing for the entire project.

But then we started getting quotes for it. And it was a small space. I mean, it was just a like 2 by 4, 2 by 5 shower with a toilet in there. And that was the separate room. And then the rest of the bathroom was like the sinks and stuff. That was all open to our, to our bedroom. And, um, and, uh, I think, I mean, we were quoted like $6,000 and $5,000 and $6,000, and it just didn't seem like the right amount to me.

Yeah, sure.

It's like I was expecting $2,000, maybe $2,500 or $3,000.

Yeah.

If somebody said $3,000, I'd have been like, okay, let's do it. So I ended up having to do more of the work, um, even though I didn't want to. And then we just hired out for the tile. And the tile was spectacular. I'm so glad we hired out for that because it was the part you see. That's the artwork, man. And it was art. Yeah, I'm not good at it. I've done it, I can do it, but I'm not good at it either. And but I did all the, all of the leveling of the shower, like the angling and stuff like that. I did all that stuff for the guy. All he had to do was come in and lay tile.

And that ended up being like $2,100 or $2,200 or something. And it was totally worth it. Yeah. Yeah. 2 payments. Like we did $50 upfront, 50%.

Okay. Yeah. Deal done. Yeah. All right. Good deal. Number 3, how do you wind down at the end of a long day?

Um, probably a few different ways. Okay. Um, I might unwind by working. Um, if it's something that isn't for a client, if it's just for fun or something for my wife that I'm working on, I might unwind that way. Yeah. Otherwise, I need, before I go to bed, I gotta have about 30 minutes to myself if it's been a long day where nobody's talking to me, nobody's looking at me, nobody's saying, Dada.

Yeah.

And it can be, it can be a sparkling water or it can be a scotch, but something to refresh my throat.

Yeah.

And, and just relax.

Okay.

Yeah.

You can put those 2 things in the same glass too.

Yeah, I mean, I used to read, but now if I read, I just fall asleep. Yeah, you know, and, um, you know, I might, I might, uh, I might check an email or something that's not for work. Sure. Like something I'm subscribed to for fun. Yeah, just to get my mind out of my day.

Right. Yeah, that's good. Okay, now, uh, maybe one of the more difficult ones, uh, but a good one. What is one of the best pieces of wisdom or advice you've ever received?

Yeah. So I'm going to go with what I said earlier about low overhead. I think high overhead is a business killer. I think the lower you can keep that, especially initially, don't get excited about, oh, I need to have a storefront or I need to have a coffee maker or I need all of these things to be comfortable. I think that that Like, first of all, like, enjoy what you're doing, because if you don't have any enjoyment in it, you won't watch it grow. You'll stop before it gets to that point. I'm not, I'm not somebody who's saying like, follow your passion necessarily, but if you want to build something, you need to enjoy it to an extent. Otherwise you will not build it. You'll stop

because it is hard.

Yeah.

Um, but with that, if you're just spending all of your money because you're trying to make things comfortable and like, you know, I worked for a year and a half without AC in that, in that house and in that garage, and that hurt. But I did it because I enjoyed what I was doing and I didn't want to spend money where I didn't have it.

Hmm.

And, um, and when we were ready and we had the money, I, you know, got some insulation and added a bunch of new electrical so I could power everything and did the whole thing. And even that I did, you know, frugally.

Sure.

Which allowed us to have a better Christmas.

Yeah.

And, um, you know, there's advantages to, to that.

Yeah, that's probably good advice. I mean, just for people's personal finances too.

I mean, just keep the overhead low. Yeah, man. It's, it's, it's You know, I even experience it now because now I rely on this income more, but I have a good month and I think, oh, I've got to spend this money now on this thing I've been wanting that I couldn't get. And it's even for work. It's like it's going to make the business better, but I don't really need it.

Sure.

Like, you got to really think about what you need to make your business operational. I would love to have a bigger space. I would love to have a space that's really welcoming to clients and they can sit back and have a drink and get their feet measured and maybe read a magazine. or a book or something, or even hang out and do a presentation, like work on their presentations or get their shoes shined or something. But, um, I don't need it. Yeah, I don't need it. One day I might, sure, but I don't need that now. Yeah. And I have to, I have to remember that always. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, dude, uh, it's been awesome just, uh, sitting here hearing about your experiences.

Yeah, thanks for chatting with me. Yeah, this is, this is great.

Well, and so, so probably one of the more important questions Where can people find you?

Yeah, uh, standardhandmade.com is the website. Uh, prices are about to go up, so if you're interested, you might want to get on it. Heyo! Um, and, uh, my Instagram, I'm there all the time.

That's where you mainly function is on Instagram?

Yeah, I've, I've built it. I've got almost 8,000 followers now. Wow. Um, which has been a lot of work.

Yeah.

And I'm there daily in some— I'm not necessarily posting daily, but I'm answering emails or messages and I'm commenting or liking people's photos, just trying to engage and get excited about shoes. I mean, there's— I think I follow all the shoemakers in the world. Yeah. On Instagram. So we all get to know each other. So it's a good place.

That's cool. Yeah. Excellent.

International crew?

Yeah, international and national. There's a lot of old bootmakers that have recently got onto Instagram, and like now theirs are all growing faster than anyone else's because they all have this reputation. Like, like all of us other shoemakers know who they are, so we share their stuff all the time. Yeah, like talk about them all the time. And yeah, so they, they're all growing a lot faster than we did. That's funny.

Well, cool. Well, uh, thanks for, thanks for joining us. We had a great time.

Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me.

You know, go buy some shoes.

Yeah. Yeah.

All right. If you have any questions, um, you can direct them toward us and we can always, uh, ask him for you, or you can contact him directly on Instagram, whatever, and, uh, we'll get you in touch. Uh, if you need anything else, you know how to get us, info@homewonershow.com or www.homewonershow.com. Anything else, Craig?

That's it.

All right, we're here every Tuesday. Until then, see you later.

See ya.