That Time We Talked About Hoarding

This is episode number 34 of The Homeowner Show. Whether you're DIY or looking to hire, we're here to help you find the best information and options for you and your home. My name is Kevin Hackett, and here with me is Craig Williams.

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to The Homeowner Show. We are excited that you guys could be with us today because we have a really cool episode for you guys. Kev, how you doing, man?

Dude, I am fantastic. I am a year older and, um, that's right, birthday's tomorrow. Well, I mean, you'll be recording the birthdays tomorrow. When this goes out, I will have already—

Could have been 2 weeks older.

Yeah, yeah, it's gonna be crazy. It's gonna be so crazy.

I'm starting to see a little, uh, faded red in the beard.

Yeah, faded red, and, uh, there's this other color joining it. Yeah, there's a few strands of some weird foreign color.

Which by the way, Faded Red, that's like a cool band name right now. I'm claiming it right now.

Okay.

FadedRed.com. It's specifically marketing to gingers.

Um, I will play in this band. Do you have room for a kazoo player?

Well, I think in Faded Red we could only have redheaded people, so—

Oh.

Not red-faced people.

Oh, dang. Well, that— I'm right out. Right out.

So, I gotta tell you, man. Semi being— well, let me put it this way. There's probably not a good way to put this. So, a couple weeks ago, we talked about my infamous bee video.

Oh, we didn't talk about it. We laughed about it a lot.

And apparently several other people did too.

Okay.

And let me tell you, just having like a slight taste of internet fame, I'm pretty convinced I don't want anything to do with it.

You're done?

I've played my one chip.

Wow.

And I think I'm done. Yeah.

Okay.

I think I had like 50 different people walk up to me doing Bubba impersonations.

Well, maybe if your shtick wasn't Bubba Gump.

It wasn't my shtick, it was all I had. That's all I could come out with.

It is now your shtick.

I can't repeat it though. I mean, like, what am I gonna go do, get another bee? I'm just walking around with bees stinging me in the lips so I can do that?

No. I mean, I'm fine with it.

Your audience demands it.

it actually.

They're gonna be severely disappointed.

Oh man, that was horrible.

Sorry guys, one-time performance.

Okay, well, you hope.

Yeah, you hope. No more bee face stings.

Oh man.

That was unpleasant. Like, I'm still like— I can still like feel like parts of it.

It's there. It's there.

Like, oh man, because it moved. Like, you see, that's the thing, it was funny for the internet, but they didn't see like the aftermath where like it moved from my lip to my cheek and into my ear.

Oh man. Yeah, it was big fun. That sounds horrible.

Yeah, anything for the fans, except for doing it again.

Except for doing it again. Not doing it, people.

That's right.

Yep.

So, well, if, if you haven't yet, go ahead and hit the subscribe button.

Do it now.

Like us on Facebook.

Do it now.

Follow us on Instagram.

Do it now.

Instagram. Instagram.

The Enneagram.

That's completely different. You can take that test if you want to.

It'll probably be really helpful. Yeah, it was for me.

So take it and then follow us on Instagram.

That's right.

And YouTube. YouTube.

Hey man, here's the deal. So I, I know that our listeners are dying to see more of our ugly mugs.

Yep.

Um, and so I am slowly working the backlog of episodes back onto YouTube. I've got a new computer and, uh, we just put a new one up, uh, just yesterday. And so we're gonna be working on that. So go to YouTube.

And by we, we mean Kevin.

Exactly. I'm the one that does the work, people. Um, so go to The Homeowner Show, uh, on YouTube, subscribe there, hit the bell. You'll never miss an episode. That's right. That's right. So tell your friends and write us a review, a rating on iTunes. We would love that. And I think that's probably all of the cheap plugs we can give.

Yep. And so at this point, we need to go ahead and bring in Morrie over here from Freedom Home Services.

Yeah, absolutely.

Kevin and I were talking with Morrie before the show. We want to learn as much about this as possible. We know that we're going to be getting some good stories. Morrie, why don't you tell everybody what you do?

Well, I'm a general contractor. We do roofing and remodeling here in the greater Houston area, but we also do hoarding remediation.

Oh.

Which is kind of a holdover from a maid service that I started about 12 years ago.

A holdover?

A holdover.

Okay.

Exactly. So we don't, we don't do the recurring service anymore, like daily, weekly, biweekly, what have you. But we held on to the hoarding remediation because I just found it to be so rewarding. And, you know, there's just so much that you get back from helping somebody in a situation like that. So, so it's, uh, it's, it's inspiring, really.

Wow.

This is so incredibly fascinating to me, Mari, because—

I'm so glad. Or else I guess I wouldn't be here.

That's right. That's right. I mean, so a few years ago, I came across the show, the TV show, Hoarders.

And I don't know if you've ever, you know, have you watched an episode of Hoarders?

You know, I hate to admit it. I never—

Never watched it?

Okay.

Interesting.

I've watched a few minutes and it was so sad.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Well, for me, it was one of those deals. It's like cage fighting. Yeah, I can't look away, right? Like, whenever I turn to like MMA stuff, I'm like, I'm locked. Yeah, I gotta watch people beat the crap out of each other. I don't know why.

It's like watching a slow-moving accident.

Absolutely. And so, um, with, with this hoarder, like, I couldn't— I was, I was shocked at, at the way, um, some people were unfortunately living their life, and it was— it's a problem. And so it's a real eye-opener. It is, yeah. And so I'm, I'm fascinated by this topic, um, and I, I'm really pretty excited to, to hear kind of what, what this is like for you, what you do, how you got into it, and some of those sorts of things.

Yeah, so you, you had the maid service that you guys were operating. Was this something you kind of stumbled into?

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, you hit the nose on the head right there. Uh, Is that the right phrase?

You can use it.

It's fine. The head on the nail or the—

As long as it's not the bee on the lip.

There you go.

Yeah.

I don't even want to see that. I'm sorry, but I am going to go look it up because I'm interested now.

Oh, yes, please do.

It is like that slow accident that—

Yeah.

That's what it sounded like.

Yes. Fantastic. It's good comedy.

Well, so yeah, we've been running the maid service for a couple of years. And at that time, I was going out and actually doing the in-person quotes, you know, not just giving them a quote over the phone, but actually going, seeing what the situation was, and then kind of signing up on— signing them up on weekly or biweekly service. That was kind of the— that was kind of the normal deal. So we— I get a call from a lady, um, kind of North Houston, and I figure it's just a regular maid service call.

Yeah.

So we go out there, and it just so happened I had a friend of mine in town. He was just kind of tagging along. And, um, we get there. It's a nice little, you know, ranch-style house. You know, you can't really tell anything from the outside. So we knock on the door and she answers. And it's this sweet old lady who's got a problem with her foot. She's had recent surgery, having trouble getting around. And so we're having this conversation at the door and I look behind her and we look behind her and there's just these mountains of boxes and trash and just, just right out of the show Hoarders.

Yeah.

You know, and it was at that time, it was a little shocking. Really shocking to see somebody living in those conditions. So she kind of took us through and it was classic. There was the little pathways and there was just the mountains of just stuff in every single room. And none of the rooms could be used the way they were designed to.

Hmm.

So her bedroom, for example, was just stacked high with masses of clothes and again, boxes and just Knickknacks, just all kinds of other things. And a lot of it was piled on her bed. So she wasn't sleeping in her bed. She was sleeping in this little recliner in the living room, just surrounded by a bunch of junk. And so that struck me right away. And then we walked, you know, through the rest of the house and we found there had been this really bad rat infestation. There was, you know, dead rodents everywhere.

In the house?

In the house.

This isn't outside the house.

Right.

I want to make that clear.

Exactly. And then there had also been this horrible uh, you know, roach infestation, um, which I'm sure you can, you know, understand.

Yeah.

And so, and then the kitchen was just completely unusable. I mean, there was stuff stacked on the floor. She couldn't really— she could only really get to her refrigerator. And so we kind of— and then every room was just, uh, really, really bad. So I kind of I was taken aback a little bit, but then seeing her in this situation— oh, and then she'd also recently lost her husband who had been the hoarder. So he'd like really been into repairing cars. And so there's just these stacks of all these car repair manuals everywhere. I mean, this guy must have had one for every car in the world. Oh my gosh.

So it wasn't even her mess.

No, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And so I did a little bit of research. We told her we were going to help her out and we got to work and know, about 14 days later, we had had— we kind of completely transformed her house back into usable condition. And, uh, you know, there's a lot of work that went into that, but, uh, she was just so happy at the end, and she was crying and just saying, thank you, thank you, thank you so much. And, uh, you know, that's where I kind of got hooked on it. And I was like, you know, I really like doing this.

Mm-hmm.

I think this could be a service I could offer to other people.

Yeah.

So that's kind of where it started.

Talk to me about the process of removal. I mean, because, because to me, I think if I were to walk into that situation, my— and this is my insensitivity, okay, I'm gonna put that out there right now— my, my initial thought would be this just all has to go in the garbage. I mean, this is because probably I mean, you know, 3/4 of the stuff, if not more, was just that, or it had been left in, in a state that now rendered it as garbage. And so, you know, I know a lot of people, um, that the, the reason they are hoarders to begin with is they say, I can't throw that away, I can't throw that away.

So kind of walk through the process. What does that even look like?

Well, the lucky thing about our situation is that, as opposed to the TV show, is that the people that are contacting us, whether they're family members, friends, or the people themselves, have kind of already made that decision to do something.

Yeah.

Which can be the toughest part.

Yeah.

But we can run into sometimes being halfway through a project and somebody really starts to slow down and, you know, starts to question, and then things can kind of come to a halt. almost have to relitigate the whole reason why they need to keep going.

Ah.

So that's, that's interesting. Um, but, uh, the process is typically, you know, I, I kind of approach it from a safety standpoint. And so we're, we're going to go in and clear all the walkways. A lot of times that's starting with all the trash, uh, if that's really a big issue in a particular job, you know, just get all of the trash out first, as much as possible. And then we go into a sorting process, and that's where we find out determine, you know, okay, like in this lady's case, there was so much that had been soiled, as you can imagine, that was kind of low-hanging fruit. Like, you know, clothes that were just exposed, not boxed up, not protected, you know, that's got to

go. And, um, you know, that extends to everything— the books, the magazines, the papers, um, you know, bed linens. You know, you can just imagine, you know, what all the stuff that, you know, a regular house usually has in it. Um, the Well, we go through that sorting process, kind of a rough sort to begin with. So we're, you know, in this lady's case, again, um, there's a lot of stuff that was— had been protected by being packed away. So we probably got, you know, most of the trash out and, um, a lot of, a lot of boxes and things that, that, you know, were problematic. So I would say something like 40%. of that initial job was just the trash removal and getting rid of that stuff. And then we started in on the, on the real sorting

between, okay, what can be donated and what do you really want to hold on to?

Yeah.

So we've already figured out what can be held on to. Now it's a question of, hey, do you really need this stuff? There was so much stuff left over from my husband. It was kind of, that was kind of an easy, easy part of it.

Yeah.

Um, so, uh, so we worked through that sorting process, then we organized the— so we, we kind of take the trash away either with a trailer We'll get a dumpster on site and then we'll take all the stuff that she ends up wanting to donate. We'll take that to donation centers. So we're really pulling a lot of stuff out in those first 2 phases. And then it's down to the fine sort where we're really figuring out, you know, is there anything else that needs to be gone through? But the thing that I— so it's a safety thing for me first, you know, clear out those walkways, make sure you can get out of the house if there's a fire.

Exactly.

Exactly. And then, that's where the maid service experience comes in. We do a really thorough cleaning and sanitation, getting everything up off the floor. That's really key. But then, in her case, we're pulling all of the silverware and glasses and dishes and things out of the cabinets. I'm out in the backyard. My friend was laughing at me because I had this big station set up. I had the bleach water, I had the rinse water, I had my racks and everything, but I was bound and determined that But she needed this stuff.

Sure.

And so, it was going to be clean to the nth degree. And then, we went back in and did the same thing inside the cabinets, the drawers, just every square inch. We tried to kill all the bacteria.

Yeah, which is also a safety issue.

Yeah, exactly. Just trying to make it safer and healthier and then ultimately a happier place to live in.

Yeah. And, in a situation like that, I mean, it sounds like she had I mean, I hate to use the word victim, but like, you know, her husband had been the hoarder and she hadn't. She was just sort of living in this situation, and it's probably easier for her. Have you dealt with a situation where the person who has been, you know, quote unquote, the hoarder on site, like, watching you guys go through everything like that? I mean, and was it really difficult for them to— You know, come to terms with that? Or is that something— because I know you said that coming to terms is the hardest part. Is that something that you kind of help them realize sometimes?

Yeah, I try not to, you know, I say immediately, you know, I don't— I'm not trying to be a therapist. I don't put— I'm not putting myself out as a therapist, right? But I'm often giving therapy, and, and that's when we have folks like the lady who, uh, yeah, this is kind of a flippant sort of example, but It's a little humorous. She, you know, she had something like 13 watering cans. Um, you know, we had gotten through a lot of, of her issues, but she had these 13 watering cans that she really was having trouble getting rid of. And they're all different sizes, different colors, you know, they're cute and all. Some are plastic, there's some metal. And I'm like, you know, um,

do you really need— you know, kind of went back and forth, you know. She's like, what does it hurt? What's the problem? And I said, you know, it's really not I don't think it's a problem per se, but think about it. Do you really need 13? Can we, you know, let's do— let's get a win. Can we maybe narrow it down to 3?

Yeah.

You know, and then she said, no, you know, uh, how about 9? I'll do 9. And then we're in this negotiation mode. I'm like, oh, I know where this is gonna end up. We're gonna end up at 7, you know, 7.5 or 6.5 or what have you. And I kept— we— I kept pushing back and pushing back. And that's another thing that I, I think is important is We're trying to be as compassionate as possible and as respectful as possible. I've usually got 2 or 3 people that have been with me for a while helping out, so we've established that, but I'll keep pushing if I think there's an opening there. And so I was really happy to get her down to 2. I think it was 3, maybe, watering cans.

Okay, you held your ground.

Yeah, that was a big deal.

Yeah, so kind of related to that question, one question I've got is, What— how, how many people do you have that call and say, uh, my mom or my relative or my best friend is really needing your, your services versus, um, the one who's in the situation calling and saying, I need help?

It's probably 75/25.

Okay.

So 75% of the time it's a family member, a friend, A neighbor who's kind of become friendly over time. But it's primarily family members. And I see it as a real— we're all kind of faced with this issue of how to help our parents when it's time for them to transition. They've reached a certain age.

Sure.

And it's the question about, are they going to move out, downsize, transition to assisted living, what have you? But a lot of times, You know, the sons or daughters aren't aware. You know, like there was this one situation where it was the son and daughter lived out of state. And every time over the last 10 years, the dad would, anytime they came to visit, would say, hey, let's go eat out. Okay, no problem. They really didn't, you know, think it was an issue, but—

Okay.

The time added up. And so he, He passed away. And so they came to— they had to dispose of his property, and they came in and it was just full-on. The guy was a tool hoarder. He had a massive Craftsman, huge, one of those Craftsman or Snap-on or something, just this huge tall tool chest in the middle of the living room.

Oh my gosh.

Along with everything else. And then absolutely every tool you can imagine under the sun in the garage. And then just, you know, the regular huge accumulation of everything else. And so, um, They were just completely shocked and, and, uh, really saddened. Yeah, that they weren't aware that he had been living in this kind of, uh, uh, situation.

Yeah.

So, well, so what, what makes that crossover in your mind then? Because I mean, like, I think some people might hear that and go, oh, he was a tool collector, not a tool hoarder, you know, because— and, and probably in his mind he was rationalizing these tools are worth something, I'll be able to sell them, or Or I need every one of them.

Exactly.

When does that cross over?

Well, it crosses over—

I'm also thinking about these 35-year-olds living in their mother's basement with their comic books. At some point, that becomes a problem. Not just the age, but the accumulation of the—

Very definitely. And it becomes a problem, whether it's tools, whether it's clothing, whether it's just overbuying stuff, when it really starts to interfere with using the home as it was intended and using all the rooms as they were intended.

Right.

So that's kind of a, you know, that's when you really— like this guy with all the tools, it wasn't that he had tools in the garage or tools, you know, a tool chest in his living room, but the tools were all over the floor. And so, again, we're talking a huge safety hazard.

Right.

Just everywhere you can imagine. And so I think that when it becomes, you know, so much accumulation that there's a safety hazard, you can't use, you know, Again, I keep repeating it, but you can't use the space as it's really intended in a logical way. That's really the crossover point.

Yeah.

Again, we had a guy— this is weird. It was a 1-bedroom apartment downtown and we found out that he had 3 apartments. So when I got the call, he said, I'm going to meet you. I've got 3, but I'm going to meet you at apartment— such and such. I'm saying, okay, interesting. And, uh, so we show up and he's got 5 feet of newspapers and magazines throughout the entire apartment. We're actually walking up and I'm kind of, you know, I'm a tall guy.

Yeah.

So you're talking 3, 4 feet of accumulation. The room, you know, is typically 8 feet, you know, the ceiling is 8 feet high. So we're kind of crouched down in a lot of ways, um, going around. And, um, it turns out that he had his other 2 apartments, you know, one was completely accumulated also. And then he had the one that he lived in.

Oh gosh.

Which was also, uh, really problematic. But for that one, um, that one apartment, I think it took us about 7 days, a 3-person crew, to get all of the newspapers and magazines out of that place. We were finding People magazine with, um, Olivia Newton-John on the COVID Oh my goodness. I mean, we're going back to the '70s now.

I mean, in, in his mind, had— was there like a rational I mean, obviously, for us in our conversation, it's completely irrational to do that. In his mind, he was going, I'm keeping these because—

He liked to read. He liked to go back and read all the stories. And so, to him, it was this sort of history project where he always had access to go back and look at a chronicle from when the space—

He's his own library.

The Challenger exploded. Exactly. Were they sorted? Not at all. Not at all. But, uh, but that's the rationale. And then that's where you get into, um, this hoarding disorder, which has become part of the DSM manual for all the psychiatric issues that are out there. Um, it started off, I think, as a subset of OCD. And I think now I could be wrong. I haven't researched it lately, but, uh—

DSM-5 now, I think is the one.

Yeah, but it's its own disorder. And so I think, um, What's interesting too about the people that we work with, I think most of them are just dealing with life kind of having taken over.

Yeah.

You know, there was a medical issue, there was something at work, maybe a mental health, um, something that slowed them down and allowed the, you know, the accumulation to kind of take over, um, but not necessarily falling into the disorder or hoarding disorder category. And then I'd say, you know, probably 20% of the people we help are actually in that Are there any of these— Which is interesting too, because it kind of— and I hate to cut in. No, no, no, go ahead. It's interesting because it's kind of a reflection of our society and how we've been taught from day one to accumulate, accumulate, accumulate, buy, buy, buy. We're marketed— I mean, we're the most marketed to, sold to

population. I don't know if the US is number 3 or 5 or what have you, but it's just this constant barrage of these Buying messages.

Yeah.

And, uh, you really see it manifested when you see some of these situations that people are living in.

When you're getting to see the extreme manifestation of that.

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly. I was going to ask if there's, if there's ever been an incident— I would imagine you, you kind of have to be aware of this— where you, where you have to call in any sort of government agency or legal entity for a situation that you come across.

It hasn't happened that way yet, but we have been called in by the Department of Family and Protective Services and gone in under their auspices to help various people. And then there's another— maybe it's changed, but there's a county authority that does that as well. And so we've been contacted by those people and helped that way.

I know you probably can't talk about details or anything like that, but why would they call you? I mean, what are they observing that they're calling you to come in?

Trying to think of an example. Well, sometimes they will take— and I don't pretend to understand all the legal ramifications.

Sure.

They'll become the executor, if you will, for an elderly person, for example, who doesn't have friends or family to step in. So they become a ward of the state or the county or You know, the city. And, um, they, uh, you know, there's not only— not only there, there might be a, a really bad accumulation problem, a hoarding problem, but there's other things that are going on that kind of brings our general contracting, you know, skills to bear, you know, repairs that need to be done. But before the repairs could be done, the, the accumulation has to be removed.

Yeah, yeah, that was going to be a question of mine, is, is how often do you find structural repairs that have to be made, especially Most especially with, uh, with like flooring and things like that, whenever people are stacking stuff and countertops and things that have just kind of, you know, the weight over time.

Most of the time.

Okay.

A lot of times we're coming in and the accumulation's been there for, you know, it could have been there for 10, 15, 20, some cases 25 years. Wow. And so you can just imagine if something's really overaccumulated in a lot of rooms, there's been no access to do any cleaning, to do any, uh, you know, even get close to the walls. You know, if the paint, the paint starts to peel or drywall starts to fail, um, just routine maintenance becomes impossible.

Can't do it.

And so the longer that accumulation has kind of been sitting there, um, the bigger repair project there may be.

Yeah.

So it's, it's most of the cases.

Okay.

So it can be a good sort of a lead-in for us to, to do more work at the house. We get a chance to establish rapport through the, through the, you know, the clearing and the decluttering work and the cleaning and everything. And then there's, there's a lot of trust established there, and we're able to kind of move in and do the repairs. But again, sometimes we're just, we're preparing the house so that other contractors can come in and do their work.

Yeah. And so, so I think one of the other things that I've just really felt from you is, you know, there, there's a genuine heart piece of this for you.

Thank you.

I mean, I felt that just talking here to you, that, that you really genuinely care about these people because there's something that they need and you're blessed with the opportunity to know how to help them. And so I would imagine that there is a good deal of of trust that winds up coming in and out of this. And whenever you talk about, you know, there's tears at the end, or there's just this extreme gratitude, which I'm sure has a lot to do with the fact that I have reclaimed something that I didn't know if I would ever reclaim. But on top of that, there's probably this— I, I would just imagine that there's quite a few people that consider you A friend, a confidant, someone that, oh man, that person is

like a savior to me of some level.

That's really kind of you to say. I appreciate that. It's a— it's an opportunity really to, um, be kind of a superhero.

Yeah.

In some, in some ways.

Yeah.

Um, there could be a lot of tears in the beginning, that, that initial phone call. Many times they're calling and they're like, I just, I don't know what to do. I don't know where to start.

Yeah.

I, you know, I've decided I do need to do something, but it's just so overwhelming. I just, I need help to get over that, to get over that hump. And then to be able to come in, have a conversation, kind of demonstrate that compassion and, you know, the willingness to help. Really, I— the way I say it to them is, you know, we're not coming into, uh, you know, to sort of implement any strict protocol on, on you, and you're not being forced to fit into a particular box. You're in control.

Yeah.

You know, especially when it comes to, you know, we're looking through your Yeah, uh, belongings. Okay, something that you might find very valuable, it may not mean that to us, but we're going to treat it like it is.

Sure.

And you'll see, and you'll see that.

Yeah.

And we're really trying to make sure that as we go through the process, anything valuable, sentimental, important documents, um, all of that doesn't, doesn't get lost in the, um, in the shuffle.

Yeah.

And, and seem— people seem to really, uh, appreciate that.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, uh, along with that Um, a question that's run across my mind here is how many of these people are quote-unquote repeat offenders? I mean, is there something that you can do or that you've felt is, is important in helping these people say, um, I'm not going to get to this point again? Uh, because I would assume that, you know, it's an addiction. I mean, there's a reason it's in the DSM.

Yes.

I mean, it's a, it's a problem that without a significant amount of counseling I would assume this is a psychiatric problem in many, many ways.

Yes. And so we, I guess we try to be— I'm sorry, can you repeat the question?

No, absolutely.

I'm so sorry.

No, that's fine. Like, I would assume that there's a lot of these people that since this is such a problem for them, I mean, they've been living like this for so long.

Yes.

accumulated all this stuff. This is— and we're talking about it, you know, it being in the DSM. Um, um, so, and, and, you know, I don't wanna, um, consider anybody ignorant here, but if you don't know what the DSM is, it's the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders.

I'm glad you were the one to articulate that.

Um, it just so happens that's one thing I know.

It's the one thing we keep them around for.

Well, it's mainly because my name shows up in that thing. But so if— I mean, this is a problem. It is a psychiatric problem. So how do you get people to not fall back into the same lifestyle?

That's right. That's right. Unfortunately, we offer follow-up service. You know, I offer to— hey, we can have somebody come in once a month just to check on you, just to do maybe some general cleaning. Yeah, some decluttering. And we offer that. It's very seldom taken up, you know, that offer.

Okay.

We offer— I'll offer them to— I'll offer to connect them with mental health professionals, you know, that can provide that counseling, that specific counseling. And a lot of times there's not the follow-up. And unfortunately, we do get calls to come back and sort of— we just had a lady recently. It was kind of upsetting to me. It was another one-bedroom apartment situation that had just been really a terrible situation with, uh, insect infestation and, and, uh, you know, cats and dogs going to the bathroom inside and just, uh, and then overaccumulation on top of that.

Hmm.

And then not taking care of food waste, just a multiple of issues. And, um, it had been about a couple of years. We'd gotten her fixed up. She was very happy and appreciative. And then, uh, just recently, She called back again and said, I've got this, I got the problem again. And the apartment management is on me now to do something about it.

Okay.

So it unfortunately just, it does happen.

Sure.

And it's, you know, it comes down to, you know, you can, you know, lead the horse to water, but you can't, you know, you can't force it to drink. And so we will offer, and I'll even make follow-up phone calls and I'll check in on people. especially if it was an especially bad situation or I really suspect that they're going to repeat. I'll try my best to stay in touch over the next few months or what have you. But yeah, that's an issue.

With an apartment like that, I don't necessarily blame the apartment people for— I don't want them to get on your case, but they have other people's health to be concerned about. Exactly.

And as a pest control expert, you know full well how the roaches can Oh, they just migrate from one room to the other. Exactly.

Yeah. It's almost impossible when you have someone in an apartment complex that's being extremely messy and negligent of care to even get any semblance of control, let alone their neighbors. If you do anything to control it in that room, you're just going to chase them into everybody else's.

Exactly.

You've got to have everybody on the same page in those places. Not a lot of people realize that. It's difficult. You end up chasing them from room to room.

Right. In one particular episode regarding which to this day, I've had my fair share of interactions, but they still kind of just gross me out.

Oh, yeah.

Bottom line. I'm sorry.

I deal with them all the time. They gross me out.

Sorry, Ms. Roach, whatever your scientific name is.

Disgusting Dilopolis.

Yeah, exactly. I got this call from— actually, it was interesting. A social worker at MD Anderson was working with a cancer patient who she found in visiting the home, you know, had a really severe problem, not only with, you know, accumulation hoarding, but a roach infestation. And so a really kind donor, you know, to MD Anderson kind of took her under her wing and decided to pay for us to come in and do a complete project clearing things out.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, it was great. You know, it was great of them to do that. But it was the first time I had really walked into just a really, really overwhelming situation. I— it was one of, one of the times when I really considered not taking a project.

Okay.

Right. So the lady answers the door, you know, very normal, you know, seeming, but she has roaches crawling all over her.

On her person?

Yes. And she's become so desensitized that she's just kind of casually brushing them off of her shoulder in mid-conversation. So right there we knew it was, uh, this was a different type of a project. So we walk in and the walls and the ceilings are black.

Yeah.

With roaches.

Wow.

And they were the German, German cockroaches, you know, which I know are the worst. Those are kind of the worst ones, right? When you compare them to a woodroach or whatever.

I mean, the way that we describe them is they're a filth I mean, that's really the best way to describe them is, I mean, they only exist in places where there's filth. That's where they thrive. So.

So, um, that's where I learned how, uh, you can kill roaches with a Shop-Vac. Um, we had 3 Shop-Vacs in there, um, for, you know, a few days. It was a fairly small place, but they just kept coming. They just kept coming and coming and coming. It was like an advancing army. And you feel like, you know, are you guys Games of Thrones?

I've seen, I've seen some episodes.

Okay, well, you've got the Nightwalkers that are getting ready to just— they're just millions of them and they're getting ready to overrun, you know, all these people that are trying to keep them from, you know, just destroying, completely destroying humanity.

Wow. And, um, visuals there for sure.

Yes. Um, but, uh, we were able to get it. Yeah, we kind of— I had to kind of steel myself to, uh, to get in there. Um, but we were able to get her taken care of. And, and we actually ended up moving her into a new place.

Oh, wow.

Which was a blessing.

Yeah.

A true blessing. And the donor helped.

But you, you kind of casually moved past some numbers there that I want people to make sure that they caught, that you had 3 Shop-Vacs.

Yes.

Over the course of several days. I'm assuming 3 to 4 days. And there were enough roaches that you had to keep vacuuming with 3 vacuum cleaners for 3 to 4 days.

And we're not vacuuming the floors, like the carpet. We're vacuuming the surfaces, like the walls.

Right.

If you've ever estimated a painting job, you have to estimate the square footage of the walls, the ceiling, in every room. That ends up being a lot of area.

I'm assuming 20-gallon vacuum cleaners. Yeah.

12, 14.

Do the math in your head, folks. It's pretty gross.

Yeah. And then, the other gross thing was, But again, it happens. People get so ashamed about their situations, they end up— something fails like the water, the toilet stops, or there's a water problem or whatever. And they're so ashamed, they don't want to let the service providers come in. And so she's been living for more than a year not being able to flush her toilet.

Hmm.

And so again, I don't want to get really gross, but she was using a different method to deal with waste. That was very, very unsanitary.

Yeah.

Very, very unhealthy. So, wow. So that was particularly rewarding. But, uh, I thought, you know, if I get through this job, I can do anything. Dealing with roaches is never going to be an issue again.

But they still freak me out.

Yeah, I just can't.

I can't.

I see one in my house, I'm like, oh yeah, no, they're disgusting. I don't know, it's just that— I don't know, it's one of those, you know, visceral, uh, reactions that you just, I guess, never get over. Yeah, well, I guess you're over it.

No, no, they gross me out. I mean, like, but that's part of what makes me good at what I do. It's like I don't stop until they're gone.

I think that's admirable. That's admirable. A lot of people would just say, I'm running away.

I'm done.

Yeah, because if I was desensitized to it, I wouldn't— I would have a hard time empathizing with people who have a problem.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. What's funny is I've had people that are working with me run away from situations. I turn around and Josh is gone. What happened to Josh? He can't take it anymore. He's gone.

He's out.

He's outside heaving or—

Yeah.

What have you.

He's been called out on the podcast now. He'll fix his ways.

And that's not a real name either, but somebody actually did do that. Um, and I— and again, I never try to make light of people's situations. Um, but, uh, but sometimes you got to kind of find the humor.

Sure.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

So, so you, you've talked to us about a couple of gross things. You talked to us about a couple of Um, kind of, kind of weird things. What, what are some other stories, maybe, maybe one or two, that, that are kind of ones that you tell at parties?

Sure.

Well, I was, uh, you know, it was kind of early days. I was in with a guy on a job where, um, the, uh, I guess we were living in the— working in the living room. It's just him and me, and the house was just kind of— it was one of these situations where there's just stuff like 3 or 4 feet high everywhere. So we're in the living room, and, uh, we're both kind of big, burly guys. He's holding the trash can. I'm just picking up junk off the floor and just putting it in the bag. And we fill one up, he takes it outside and brings another one. And so I'm kind of getting to the bottom to where the floor is, and I kind of take the last chunk to where I'm going to be able to see the carpet,

and, uh, a snake pops out.

Oh, gosh.

And it's, uh, it's not one of the ones that sort of just says, oh, hey, and then runs away.

Oh.

We used to hunt cottonmouths, you know, in the bayous out in Katy, you know, back in the, back in '70s now. I'm dating myself. Um, but they would, you know, they would lunge. Oh yeah, they're aggressive. Very aggressive. Exactly. And this was a very aggressive snake. We start screaming like little girls.

Sure.

And we run out of the house.

Absolutely.

That's our initial, uh, reaction.

And if you didn't, I would be a little bit worried.

But then, uh, that wasn't smart because we still had the whole house left to do. Like, we have this dread of going back. Is there one or more? Is it a family?

Oh man.

Maybe there's— maybe they're living like, you know, maybe it's a commune of snakes. There's many families of snakes living together. And were there? Yeah, um, there were several. Yeah.

Oh wow.

And, uh, we just every time we're like, oh, you know, it's just, uh, I wanna— again, one of those visceral, yeah, uh, reactions.

So keep a flathead shovel around.

Yeah, at that point you just start tallying. It's like, okay, that's scream number 7 for you, sir.

Yeah, exactly.

Oh yeah, well, you've had 19, so yeah.

I'm more man That's right. This other time, we had a lady who, um, you know, she had a front— one of those front rooms you walk in and then to the right is this room with French doors, I guess a little office study, what have you. And, um, it's just packed to the brim with boxes and furniture and everything else. And, you know, I didn't even know how we were going to get in there. Again, you know, I have this burly partner with me, you know, big guys. And, uh, she says, okay, first thing before we start on the rest of the house, my kitty's in that room there. You know, and, um, like, okay. She goes, I need him out of there because I don't want him to get caught up and hurt or whatever else, but he's in

there somewhere. So we kind of wedge our way, you know, into this little, you know, 10 by 10 room, and we have no idea where this cat is. So we're just kind of moving stuff around. All of a sudden, he's— he jumps out right behind me. and, um, starts skittering across the box. And I can't let him go because it's going to be another 45 minutes to try to find this, this cat. So I've got to grab him.

Oh no.

And I, and I've got work gloves on, but they're the, the real, you know, um, light kind that have the synthetic mesh or anything. They're not like big leather work gloves. And so I grab him and I try to be as gently and gentle as possible. And he does the, this alien number where he just kind of goes, oh yeah. And like, I'm, I've got him like this, and he just clamps onto my hand. But I can't let him go again. It's just one of those things. And a couple of times I'm like shaking. She's probably thinking, oh my God, my cat. You killed my cat. But he's kind of flopping around, and finally I get him. But the work gloves provide no

protection whatsoever. And I've got these fangs, this fang scar to carry around as a war story for for a couple of, uh, years after that.

So, well, have you ever been, been going through one and just like stumbled across something really valuable?

Oh yes, yes, there's a lot of times. Um, one time we found a, um, an opal brooch that the lady told me was worth something like, I don't know, it had a lot of opals on it, $50,000 or $60,000.

Oh my gosh.

But I have not found that bag of cash yet in the attic.

Not there.

Yeah.

They seem to store that in a safe place.

They know where that is.

Yeah. Absolutely. If you ever find like that stash of baseball cards, that's the—

Yes.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, I know a guy. Oh, it's got a lot of baseball cards. So yeah, we could talk after.

Sure.

I do like me some baseball cards.

We had another lady, um, where she was very vocal. So we kind of come in and we're getting started. And, but she is just from day one, we spent probably 3 or 4 days there. And it was another one where I really wanted to kind of leave in the middle of it. It got so uncomfortable. But she was just one of— she was just browbeating her poor husband to death. Just, this is all your fault. I can't believe this, you know, blah, blah, blah. And he's just— He's been browbeat for so long. He's just kind of got his head down. You know, he's saying, yes, honey. You know, he's really using his, you know, his words carefully and everything.

But, um, I make the mistake of, uh— so there's that going on and we're having to listen to that. But I make the mistake of taking a rag from like behind a couch and I'm cleaning up some liquid in the, in the kitchen. And she comes out and she goes, I can't believe you're using my good dishcloth!

Oh.

And, you know, how dare you! And she's really starting to jump on me. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I just—

I found this and I thought—

I'm sorry, I thought it was It was like behind the couch. She's like, you know, get out, get out.

Oh my gosh.

So, you know, we go out and I'm with my partner and we're kind of standing outside kind of letting her calm down. But she is just railing on her husband, just screaming at the top of her lungs. And she's been on him most of the time. But as soon as we walk out after the rag incident, she And she starts in on us, starts talking about us. You know, I can't believe, you know, you brought them here and they're not doing, you know, they're, they're not, you know, not doing anything, you know, they're not doing the right thing, what have you. She's just really out of control. And so she starts to up the volume so much that my friend starts to worry, you know, dude, I think she's gonna bring it. I think

she could bring a gun out here. You know, this is not sounding— I, I don't know, I'm not feeling safe anymore.

Yeah.

But she just kept ratcheting it up, ratcheting it up, ratcheting up. And, um, you know, finally we We kind of just had to say, you know, we're not sure we can continue. We're going to kind of let things die down. And she's still screaming at her husband. And I don't know, it's kind of the first time we felt kind of unsafe where she just kind of was so unhinged that we were scared.

Were you able to finish the job?

We finally were. We were able to kind of reach a mutual agreement.

Good.

And finish up. So yeah.

Um, it's, it's admirable that you can get to, you know, work with someone who can be, be ugly about things like that. So yeah.

That happens too a lot of times in family, um, situations.

Um, it's an emotional situation.

Yeah, it really is. It's, uh, very stressful. It's like moving is one of the most stressful things. And so this is, this is right there, up, up there with them.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, so if, if someone needed to hire you, what should they expect the process to be like, you know, from the time they call you to, you know, having you come out, getting that What are they expecting when they get in contact with you?

I'll set up an assessment, time to just go out and visit and get a scope sort of what we're looking at. And then, at that point, I'll be trying to establish that rapport, that bridge, so that we have kind of a good platform to work from. And then, I'll provide— it's a lot like contracting— provide the estimate. Go over that with them, make sure they understand exactly how it's all going to work.

Yeah.

I try to be overly detailed because it is such a sort of an intimate engagement.

Yeah.

And I want to touch on, hey, you know, there could be some times when, you know, think we do get crossways and, you know, it's by no fault of anyone's, you know, but there could be these situations where, you know, you're not feeling it, we're not feeling it, and let's have an agreement over how we're going to resolve that and keep moving forward. And then just always emphasizing, we're there to help. We're there to just be an extension of you. We're trying to help you get from point A to point B in the most efficient, safest way possible with the least amount of drama. And usually with somebody who we're working on an individual level with, that tends to go pretty smoothly.

Mm-hmm.

It's when other friends or family members come in. And I would offer as a piece of advice, I would just take this opportunity to say to people that have somebody they know that's in a situation and they really want to help them, there are— I would urge you not to— you know, it's really easy to look at somebody else's situation and kind of judge it.

Sure.

But then, you know, there's a line that you can cross by You know, kind of shoving that in their face.

Yeah.

You know, hey, Susie, why, why are you keeping this? Just throw it out.

Yeah.

You know, what about this? Let's just get rid of it all. That is— that's just not going to help, um, the situation. The, the more non-judgmental you can be in your approach and when you're talking to these folks, I think the more effective that communication can be.

That's good.

That's so good. So, uh, so we, we really, um, we really stress that. And then I just go over the process with them like I did with you earlier about we're going to look for all the obvious trash. We're going to try to make the walkways safer. Then we're going to get into the sorting process. And I like to say, I think that sorting process is kind of what differentiates us from maybe some of the other services that are out there.

Okay.

That do this kind of work, because it, you know, it is tedious, but a lot of folks need that sorting. They need to know that the stuff's not just going to be willy-nilly, you know, tossed into a bag and taken out. We had this lady that we're helping right now actually had had an organizer come in and helper. And, uh, the, the lady that was helping her was bringing a trash bag from downstairs, and the homeowner just said, hey, can I just look in there real quick? Well, there was a lot of trash in there. That was fine. But then there was a Tiffany box in there with a diamond necklace.

Oh, wow.

So immediately she became suspect. Not that— it wasn't like this lady was trying to, uh, steal anything, but she was just not— that sorting process wasn't there, making sure, you know, they're catching the valuables and the sun To be fair, she missed a pretty significant item.

Yes.

That's kind of a big one.

That's a big one.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, I get it.

I might be a little, a little miffed, but it opened up an opportunity for us. Yeah, sure.

Well, it also probably gave you an opportunity to say, you know, listen, we've really gotta make sure that we're doing what these people are asking us to do. I would assume that that was just a, a good opportunity, like you said.

Yep, it was. And I would also add that, um, you know, this issue There's no socioeconomic level at all. It happens at all levels. There's no other demographic like where it happens to more people in a certain demographic than others.

Okay.

So that's kind of a little something that's fascinating. I've been in virtual mansions, 10,000, 15,000 square feet, you know, somebody living on a golf course, very, very nice house, but they've got this issue.

Yeah.

And you're just, you know, surprised at first, but then you realize it happens at all levels.

There's a problem.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, and, and so, so let me take this opportunity to say that, um, you know, there's part of what we've talked about here where we, we are laughing about It's not a laughing matter. However, you know, we do think that on some level, if you're not able to see the lightheartedness of certain situations, you're gonna get bogged down. It's gonna be hard to kind of get through them, right? And so, you know, if this is something that one of our listeners is either dealing with personally, or if they have a family member or friend that is dealing with this personally, how would they get ahold of you? you or, or somebody? What do you— how do you search for somebody?

Because not everybody's in Houston, Texas, this area.

But how do they get a hold of you specifically? And then maybe if they don't live here, how could they get a hold of someone?

Well, um, I'm not— um, I, I have this website called freedommains.com/hoarding. Um, it's— well, the website obviously is freedommains.com, but But the hoarding page had ranked on Google very high for a time. I spent a lot of time. It's still there. It's still findable. But there's a lot of great resource links on there, a lot of really good content. I spent a lot of time kind of putting it together. And so, but I had to change hosting providers recently. And so it kind of got knocked out and we're kind of climbing back up again.

Okay.

But they can go to that. Um, that site to kind of read up about how we approach.

Okay.

There's a list on there, 10, 10 way— 10 simple steps to a safer, healthier, happier home.

Okay.

And it really just breaks down the process much like I've, I've shared with you guys.

Okay, great.

They can call me directly, 281-748-0055. We've got a Facebook page, Freedom Home Services. And we also have— I'm also on LinkedIn.

Okay.

But so does that kind of answer your question? Yeah.

Okay. Yep.

And again, I really appreciate the opportunity to share a little bit about what we do.

No, of course. Yeah, it's been awesome.

No, it's been really informative. And like I said, I've been fascinated with this just because it's a— I think it's a phenomenon that, that a lot of people are unaware of, um, and unaware of why can't people just get rid of things, or why did they choose to live this way. And, you know, we can say that same thing about a lot of, a lot of addictions in life. You know, it started with that one drink, or it started with that, you know, that one puff, um, etc., etc., and that one image that I looked at, you know, and it just, it grew from there. So, uh, thank you for what you do.

Thank you.

Thank you so much. Because I think you perform a service that is different than just, hey, I need you to help me with this. This is different than I need a plumbing job or I need an electrician or something. This is truly something that takes time and heart and effort.

It changes people's lives.

It does. It does. Absolutely.

Thank you very much.

Just for me personally, Thank you. Thank you for what you do. But it is time to move into the last portion of our show, which is the Final Four. The Final Four. All right.

And I've totally thought of some really great answers. Yes.

Oh, I'm so glad.

I haven't. Because everyone up until now has been terrible.

Yeah.

We'll just wing it. Yeah, I'm gonna wing it.

Oh, that's— no, that's totally right. Totally right.

I've been winging this whole thing, so.

All right, well, these are 4 questions we ask all our guests.

No problem.

And, um, so we'll just start with number 1. What's the must-have tool you won't leave the house without?

Well, as a general contractor, I would be remiss to ever leave my tape measure.

Okay.

And, you know, that's not to have—

2 episodes in a row, 2 episodes in a row we've had tape measure.

And I know, uh, people have said, you know, that's not cool, you need to have a laser. thing. They're cheaper now and all that. And, and I'll probably graduate to that soon.

Eventually.

But, uh, but yeah, if one of my guys shows up without a tape measure—

Uh-oh.

Yeah, it's not—

it's not good.

It's not a good conversation.

Yeah.

Especially if you're in sales and a project manager.

Yeah.

Or, you know, one of my, uh, roofers shows up, you know, roofing salespeople shows up without a ladder at a, at a free roof inspection that we've been offering.

Oh, nice.

Homeowner, and I'm, I'm there.

Ah, so yikes.

Yeah, so ladders, ladders, uh, That is important.

Second, yeah.

Unless you have go-go gadget legs, or you're a rock climber or something. You can just find one.

Spider-Man. Spider-Man up the—

No, I used to love that show. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

He's got it. So I asked the last person that said tape measure if they had tried the new VR tape measure like on the phones. Have you tried that?

Yeah, I'm embarrassed to say I haven't. You haven't? There is a cool thing on the phone that It measures pitch on a roof. Yeah, you just set it, and it took me a while to figure it out. I felt so dumb, but you just set this— you set your phone, actually. I was like pointing it, you know. Oh yeah, because waving it around.

The gimbal in the phone.

Yeah, you just put it on the roof and it tells you right there what the slope is or the pitch.

Wow.

Some people need it to measure the pitch of their voice.

Yes.

For when they're singing.

And I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut in there.

No, no, no, we'll show it to you afterwards. Yeah.

How's my pitch been?

Oh, it's been fantastic.

Oh, thanks so much.

Yes, I would— you're spot on with the inspection Gadget themes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, now we've all sung it.

You need to pull out your guitar, Craig.

We've got a couple of them in here.

Yeah. There's a banjo right over there too.

But you mentioned something about questions.

Yeah.

Other questions.

We have a second one.

Number 2.

Number 2.

Good segue.

All right. All right. What's a job you've walked away from? So it could be a career if you want, but But, uh, you know, maybe there's a job around your house or, uh, something like that that you've said, you know what, I got into this, I just can't, I don't want to do it.

Well, unfortunately, it's a— it was a hoarding project I had, and there was a lot of family members involved, and there was a lot of drama. Um, there was just— we could never—

kitchen.

Yeah, we could never satisfy. And I try to really— I'm not trying to over-pat myself on the back, but, um, that we had gone far exceeded. We were truly trying to help them out, you know. with their budget and what have you. But we had far exceeded our contracted time and the money that had been paid. We'd gone over that by probably a week.

Oh, wow.

I had a couple of people on this plus myself. But they were not happy for a variety of reasons. And I finally just had to say, you know what? I'm really sorry we weren't able to know, get it done to your satisfaction, but I've got to say this is all we're— we're pretty much done now.

Yeah.

Because there had been so much bad will, you know, just so ill will, what have you. And, you know, when they— unfortunately, I feel like we just, again, we went way overboard to make them happy. But as we all know as business people, there are some people, they're just not going to be happy. So I hated to do that. There was a lot of threats, you know, legal and all that good stuff. And I'm like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm for—

okay.

Yeah, I understand. But, but again, I just had, you know, it had gotten to the point where it was really demoralizing to my team. And when I saw that, that's kind of what set me over the, what set me over the edge. So I tried to be, I tried to be very diplomatic about it, but it was a definite, we're done.

Sure.

Kind of a thing.

Okay. All right, great. Uh, or not great. Third question.

Way to listen to the answer, Kev.

What did he say? All right.

Third question.

Like me, it's like, I'm sorry, can you repeat that again?

That's right. That's right. I was listening. Okay, fine, whatever. Third question. How do you wind down at the end of a long day?

Well, I've got 4 daughters, ages 12 to 18.

God bless you.

And they laugh at me. But over the last year, I've become absolutely— I wasn't ever a big video game person growing up. Um, do you remember Intellivision?

Intellivision?

That's probably— yeah, I'm really dating myself, but that was like—

But that was like— that's like a brand, isn't it?

It should have been a Sega.

Okay.

It should have been a Sony or something, but it was Intellivision.

I think—

And you could play on your television.

Okay.

Yeah, it's really, yeah, archaic. But anyway, um—

Archaic?

Archaic.

Okay.

Yeah, sorry.

Yeah, it's just old. Um, but, uh, but I've recently gotten hooked on PUBG. You know, the single shooter game. Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know. Just every night I've got to have at least, you know, 40 minutes of being killed immediately upon landing in the play zone. Or maybe, you know, getting off a few shots. I'm not very good.

But it's a release of energy for you. It is.

It is.

Yeah. Okay, great.

You know, it's my way of getting back at all the really bad Houston drivers that I deal with every day.

Oh, man. Yeah.

Don't get me started.

There's plenty of them. Yeah, yeah. Even if there were a lot of really good drivers, and, and there maybe are a few, there, there's so many here, there's got to be a ton of bad ones.

I had, I had— I hate to just real quick, on the way here on 2920, I'm in, in this huge line at the light and this little bitty car comes out of nowhere and wants to nose in, but I have no way to back up.

Ah, right.

So I'm I don't know what you want me to do.

What do you want from me?

Exactly. So, I'm going to the bank to get money out of the ATM. That little car ends up following me.

Oh, no.

I'm like, oh my God.

Whoa.

What is this going to be?

Wow.

And so, I pull up to the ATM, this little car pulls up, you know, the window goes down and it's just a sweet little girl, you know, probably, you know, early 20s, whatever. She's like, hey, man, you know, what's the deal? Why didn't you let me in?

Oh my goodness.

I'm like, I had no way of backing up. Oh, you're really sorry? Yeah, you almost caused a major accident. He's really sorry. Or she's like, he's really sorry, to her friend, rolls the window up and drives off.

Really?

Yeah.

Wow, that is—

But it could have gone so many other really, really bad ways, you know? If you're gonna get harangued and somebody's gonna do road rage, that's how I'd like it to be.

I was gonna say, you, you were probably on some level, it's like, I just got chewed out by a little girl.

Wow.

But I get chewed out by little girls all day.

All day.

My girls just do not give me an inch.

I saw her coming a mile away.

Yeah, she ain't got nothing.

All right, number 4, last question. What's one of the best pieces of wisdom or advice you've ever received?

Oh, you know what? You told me that in the beginning that that was going to come, and, uh, I really got to think about that one. So Best pieces of advice. Well, in business, I learned— I was told by a kind older gentleman that just doing business on price alone is the quickest way to go out of business. So if you're always competing on price alone, it's a really good way to go out of business because there's always going to be a guy that's out there willing to do it cheaper.

Yeah.

That's not to mean that we are the most expensive.

Sure.

But we charge a reasonable, fair and reasonable rates for what we do.

Yeah.

Because I believe we're really providing a real value.

Yeah.

Um, and so any, you know, budding business people out there, I would, I, I would, I would say, you know, shoot for being a, uh, more of a premium service.

Yeah. Yes.

You'll end up doing fewer jobs, but you'll make more money.

Yeah, and well, probably have better, better customers.

Yeah, and I learned that in, in maid— doing maid service. That's really where that came to bear.

So yeah. Well, listen, it has been a pleasure to have you on the show tonight. And, uh, you know, I hope, um, our listeners have gleaned something from this.

And I hope so too.

If nothing else, you know, had a little chuckle from here to there. Um, so Craig, you got anything else you want to mention?

Yeah, if you haven't yet, hit the subscribe button, follow us on Facebook, Follow the Instagram, follow the YouTube. You can even hit us up on Twitter, although we're never there. But if that's your thing, you can—

Twitter.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Ask Jack Dorsey. That's right. Um, but yeah, you can, you can find us and you can always reach us at info@homeownershow.com. You can also go to homeownershow.com and get all the up-to-date information as well as that DIY calculator, which is super helpful if you got a project you want to get done. I think that's it, Kev.

All right, well, we're here every Tuesday with a new episode. Hope you're telling your friends, and until then, we'll see you next time. See ya!