Texas Insulation Scandals with Steve Spoon CEO of Victory Insulation

It's episode number 327, live here in the Homeowner Show Studios. I'm Craig Williams, and whether you're DIY or looking to hire, we're here to bring you the best information and options for you and your home. We are so glad that you could join us here live in the studio. All right guys, let me get that music turned off. Ah, it looks like my camera's froze up. That's freaking fantastic. There we go. That seems to be better. It says poor connection reconnecting. Hopefully it's going live out there. If you guys are having trouble with it, let me know. It was working fine before we went live. Um, guys, we're gonna have a good time tonight. Uh, we gotta thank our sponsors before we get rolling with this

show. Uh, let's go ahead and thank Lone Star Appliance Repair. Guys, if you have trouble with your appliances, give them a call at 936-647-2364. Whether it's old or it's new, who wants ugly, unmatched appliances? It's way cheaper to get them repaired than it is to go and deal with idiot salesmen at the big box stores. Because we all know that you're looking forward to spending an entire Saturday having the differences between the appliances that they looked at for the first time that afternoon to you. Uh, just go ahead and get 'em fixed. Again, 936-647-2364. We also want to thank our sponsor, True Texas Solar. Give 'em a call, 936-286-8325. Uh, whether it's solar power, whole home batteries, whole home

generators, or a combination of the 3 to get your home powered and prepared for hurricane season, which is just around the corner. Uh, they are your go-to company. They are honest. They are out there to reveal who the scammers and the notorious people are out there just taking advantage of people. Uh, and we, we have limited time now on all of the, uh, benefits. I mean, Trump's slashing and hacking all of the benefits for solar right now. So now's your chance to get it done before those go away. Give them a call.

936- 286-8325.

All right, guys, we, we have a fun show for you tonight. We're going to be talking about a lot of fun stuff. We have returning guest Steve Spoon, Victory Insulation, on the screen. How you doing, buddy?

Good, how are you?

Very good. Get up there on that microphone, man. People, people need to hear what you're saying.

Oh boy.

Come on. Yep, there you go.

Yes, sir.

All right, all right. So you and I have had many conversations Over the past several weeks. So get—

do you—

right, like right there underneath your chin.

Are, are we gonna go into the whole, um, pest-resistant insulation? Is that where we're headed?

We absolutely have to.

I knew that was coming.

So this is, this is something that keeps coming across my desk, and because it's coming across my desk, it's coming across your desk. Oh yeah. Um, because these charlatans, uh, have to be exposed. Um, now we can't name names, um, uh, because I don't enjoy going to court. Um, yeah. Fair of that. So, and, and honestly, like, I've, I've seen the invoices. Mm-hmm. So like, it's not even difficult to find this information if you wanna go find it for yourself. There's people out there talking about this stuff right now. Um, but before we do any of that, before we get into any of the scandals, any of the stuff that's going on, I want everybody to know, because, like, you've been on the show many times,

but I want everybody to know who you are, what you do, like, and, and why we continue to talk to you about this kind of stuff.

Well, my name's Steve Spoon. I am the CEO of Victory Installation. We are a family-owned, operated business in the Conroe, Houston, Texas area. We do all types of insulation, spray foam, fiberglass, cellulose, uh, batt. We, we, we do it all. And, um, by ingraining ourselves in this and in educating ourselves over the years, right? You know, we— I'm not saying I'm an expert, right? Because, you know, being a former police officer, you know, we used to say the definition of an expert is some SOB that gets to come in from out of town and show stuff on the wall.

Right.

Because there's no test that makes you an expert, but other than that, your superior just told you that he was.

Yeah. Or she was.

Yeah. So we, we really kind of hold true to the fact that we're very knowledgeable. Um, but I learn every day, right?

Right.

Like we all do. So when I hear stuff like this come across, it just chaps me because typically it's an older couple.

Right.

Single mom, um, somebody that is, is not close to the construction industry, um, you know, more, more that direction. And they have sold them this magical pill, right?

Right.

Like The Matrix, right? It's a red one or blue. And so you hear these horrible— well, So it's companies that, how do I say this? It's companies that are very name-branded, well-known.

Yep.

Most of them are in your industry, not mine. And they have come up with a shtick that they can put insulation, take out your old insulation, put in your new insulation. And it's, it's the magic pill. No, no bugs will ever get in there. No, no critters. No yada, yada, yada, yada, which is malarkey.

Yeah.

I mean, 100%.

I mean, it really seems like they're treating it like the silver bullet.

It is, you know, right? And what you and I would do together might cost $6,000 or $7,000. They're $15,000 to $20,000.

Yeah, I was gonna say $15,000 seems to be the magic number. The last 2 I've come across, one was $15,000, the other one was $16,000. Neither one would have solved the problem.

No.

But it would have given that sales guy a pretty hefty commission check.

Absolutely.

You know, and part of that is, is like you and I understand the price point on this stuff.

Oh yeah.

You know, and we can look at it and go like, oh my gosh, they're charging almost double, you know, for like what they should be.

Or triple.

Or triple. Yeah. You know, and, and, and putting it under the banner of pest resistant, pest repellent, whatever, whatever, whatever it is they're using to, to sell it.

Yeah. So, you know, the kicker of it is, is like fiberglass insulation, blown fiberglass insulation in your home. Does— has no resistance to pets whatsoever. In fact, pets, well, they could be your pets. Yeah.

Pets can be pests.

Yeah. Depending on, you know, what you think of as a pet.

You just killed a pretty big pet in your backyard the other day.

Dirty booger.

But anyway, Um, the—

I guess the point I'm, I'm getting to is there's nothing wrong with fiberglass, but it makes a nice nest for mice, uh, raccoons, squirrels.

Right, sure.

You know, um, whereas the product that these people are pushing is a cellulose, which cellulose is 100% recycled paper, cardboard, newspaper.

Get that thing a little bit closer to you, man.

Sorry.

I keep leaning back.

I know. Sorry. Trying to get comfortable, folks.

Sorry.

And so the chemical that they use in cellulose to make it more fire resistant— Yes. I was trying to, you know, flame repellent, whatever you want to call it, is boric acid. And the caveat to the boric acid— so boric acid will give you 24 more minutes of fire protection. Okay, which is huge.

That's right. That's a massive amount of time.

Yeah, it's better than foam. It's better than fiberglass. It is great. But you know, you have to have something because you're putting kindling in your in your attic. Yeah, right, for sure. So they have to come up with something, which is totally reasonable. The caveat to the boric acid is that most pests will get in it. And I'm not talking like roaches or ants, or— I'm not talking that. I'm talking mice, raccoons, possums, squirrels. They'll get in it. It's not really comfortable on the little paws, right? And they'll they'll find greener pasture, just because it's not, you know, as conducive to what, like a fiberglass—

Sure.

Web would be. So they're taking— and there are some celluloses out there that do have some pest repellent chemicals in them, but not to the extent that they're being sold.

Not to the curative degree.

Yeah.

That these guys are selling it as.

Well put.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, like, and, and, and speaking of, I mean, from my perspective, boric acid is a fantastic product. I mean, like, boric acid to the pest industry is almost like ivermectin. Like, I mean, like, it is because it's like, it's almost like it works across so many different pests that it's, it's almost like a wonder that we discovered it. In the sense, so like one of the best products that you have for termites, and there's, there are, you know, there's obviously gonna be people that disagree with me, but like when you, when it comes to like treating wood, you have a product like Boracare, which is a boric acid coating that you can put on wood in order to help preserve the wood and also prevent, not

to prevent, but like when termites or carpenter ants or carpenter bees or wood boring beetles or anything like that. when they get through that first layer, by the time they do, they've exposed themselves to boric acid, and it can either kill them or deter them, all kinds of stuff.

Right.

Great product. It's not a, it's not a cure-all, it's not 100%, but it's great. It's a great product. Um, and then there's other products that you can put out in granule form that are boric acid. Um, there's a— what is it called? DECO. DECO makes a great product for for silverfish. And they are little squares of, um, cardboard that you— it's safe to put them in like your silverware drawer. You can put them in your junk drawer. You can put them in your underwear drawer, like wherever. Like if you're gonna have— you can put them in between books and they're laced with glue and that's laced with boric acid. Well, that's what silverfish are after. That's why they damage antique books is because they're in there eating the glue binding the pages

together. Deco makes this product. You stick it in there, the silverfish go after the glue in there. It's laced with boric acid, kills the silverfish. So it's, it's a great product. And, but when you start telling people, and I'm gonna go through 2 cases that I've personally come across just here in Houston. And if I've come across 2, I can guarantee you there are hundreds of them.

Absolutely.

Because my company has such a small footprint in the Houston area. Like, and this is a multinational corporation that's doing this now. Like, I can't tell you the number of people that have probably fallen victim to this and, and don't even know.

Oh, for sure.

You know, and, and a lot of times it's being brought to my attention through, you know, third parties who are like, hey, my client did this. Should they have done that? Or my client's being told this. Is this malarkey? That, that kind of stuff. So, like, the first one, is, and again, to your point, it's almost always someone who's either old enough or disabled enough.

Yep.

That they can't personally check on what the person is telling them is going on.

Right.

So the first one is the one that makes me the most angry, is a woman who is in a wheelchair trying to sell her home and knows that she has a mouse in the garage. Pest specialist comes through the house, tells her that the attic is infested with mice and that it's full of mouse poop, which can be a problem. And for sure, I mean, this, you know, hantavirus and rotavirus, those things have been brought to people's attention recently. I mean, that's the thing that killed Gene Hackman. And so people are a little bit more aware and receptive to— Yes.

Right.

Like, oh my gosh, that's in my attic and we need to do something. What's it going to cost?

Right.

To do it right now. Um, so, and she's trying to sell her house, gets told that she has massive amounts of rat droppings in her attic. Well, she's in a wheelchair. She can't climb the stairs.

Absolutely.

And look, so she's trusting that this person is telling her the truth and that it's gonna cost her $15,000 and that that's gonna solve the problem. So She doesn't have the money. So she gets her boyfriend to cosign on a loan through their financing company to get this done. $15,000 later, brand new insulation in the house, which is not nothing. It's not nothing, but it's not $15,000 worth of insulation. I'm sorry.

Exactly.

She still has a mouse in her garage.

So My first one was about 3 years ago. House was a single-family, 3-bedroom ranch.

Okay. Okay.

Footprint's probably 1,700.

I was gonna say 1,500 to 1,800.

Yeah. And hers was like $12,000 or $13,000.

Okay.

And I stood there and I looked and I'm like, are you sure you got that right?

Yeah.

Because I mean, I probably would have been maybe $4,000.

Yeah.

To take it out, move it and put it back in. Right. You know, I mean, taking it out, there's, there's labor to that, right? So there is that. And then you're putting in from scratch, but that's not a $15,000 house.

No.

You know, and, and it, you know, um, older, um, single, um, lady, she probably in her 70s, late 60s, early 70s, just retired-ish, you know, thinking that direction. Um, and here she is, no, no, you know, husband to lean on, or, you know, somebody like— do you think that, you know, and, and you got a company comes in like, you know, I don't, I don't want to say the name, but, you know, it's like— coming in and you're talking to somebody like Kmart. It's nationally known name. You know, you can trust these people. They're— they've been around forever.

Yeah.

You know, and, and they're just— they're preying on these people, and it's just— it's sickening.

And it's— And I, I'll be clear about this. I don't know that the corporation is being predatory, right? Or even knows what this guy is doing.

Or Or division.

Yeah, who knows? You know, we, we've— I've run across this before where like, you know, uh, corporations have been kicked out of places like the Virgin Islands for, you know, like using pesticides that have been banned for 20 years and stuff like that. And like the corporation, you know, did they know? Did they not know? I don't know. But they disavowed themselves from that dude and sent him to prison for sure, you know? Um, so who, who knows, right? Who knows? Um, what I do know is that it's a, it's a pest company that now has their web tangled up with insulation as, because they bought an insulation company.

No, no, no, no, no. So they didn't. What they did is they had been farming out the vacuuming and putting back for so long that they—

Oh, they just finally started a division.

Yeah. They, they, they pulled it in, in, in-house so they could control the cost and go that direction.

Right. That makes, I mean, that, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, and, and the thing of it is, is, but like, if I was them, I would probably start somewhere like Houston and buy somebody like you. Well, they should have bought me.

Well, they'd probably be doing a lot better right now if they had.

Well, I wouldn't have put up with with that nonsense.

No. Yeah.

No. No.

You know, so, but I mean, but that's what I would have done is I probably would have bought like a, like a medium-sized insulation company and been like, okay, how do you guys do this? Learn, learn the ins and outs of it. Or they, or, and then expand it out across the rest of the country.

For sure. Or you, you, you scalp somebody.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

From one of the big corporate out there. You know, I mean, people don't realize this, but there are huge corporate insulation companies.

Sure. You know, and, um, when you, when you say insulation companies, do you mean guys like you or you mean like manufacturers?

No, I mean people like that, you know, uh, applicators, installers. Um, there are some, Houston has 3 of them that are huge nationwide companies.

Okay.

And, and, um, I just keep waiting to be, you know, bought up. But anyway, no, just kidding. Um, uh, but, you know, If it was me, I would go out and scout somebody that had a territory like Houston or a Dallas or an Austin or something and said, okay, you know how this works.

Yeah.

Implement it. Right. So, but okay. So I got one for you. Okay. Now we've been picking on people, so I'm going to pick on a customer. Okay. It was supposed to be—

I'm not done picking on them, but I want to hear about yours. All right. And I'm going to steal some of this.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the best stuff in the world. I'm telling you. So get this call from a lady, have mice in the attic, right? I'm like, okay, my suggestion is call an exterminator. Yeah, let's get rid of them. And then, you know, I'll vacuum out, I'll put it back. All good. Well, she decided that she couldn't stand the thought. So she goes upstairs, gets mothballs.

Oh, gosh.

Throws them all over the attic.

Mm-hmm.

And then 4 or 5 hours later, nobody can stand in the house. Yeah.

Yeah.

Because everybody's getting sick, right? So then she panics and she demands me to come out right then and vacuum the house. I'm like, well, I would love to have— be able to just peel a group and go do it, but it's not the way the world works, right?

Yeah.

I mean, we scheduled this for a reason. And, um, so I didn't— it's good stuff.

It is good.

I know, I know. Um, so you turn right around and I go out there and she's like, oh, I forgot to cancel this appointment. I'm like, what do you mean? And she goes, oh, I had somebody come out today and vacuum it all out. I'm like, okay, good, good for you. And I'm like, happy that happened. And then I'm like, you know, what did— my curiosity, right? At that point, what did you put back? She goes, oh, I'm sorry. She's like, well, I didn't have enough money to put it back.

Oh gosh.

I'm like, it is June, late June in Houston, 90 degrees from 10 o'clock to 8 at night.

Yeah.

And you have no insulation in this house. She goes, no. I'm like, your unit's gonna run and run and run. If it doesn't freeze up, I'll be surprised.

Right.

And 3 days later, she's texting me, would you just personally finance me? I'm like, no, I'm not doing that. Yeah. But yeah, so yeah, please don't ever throw mothballs in your attic.

No, I mean, like, they're toxic. They're highly toxic. And like, the problem is, is that we're dealing with like third-generation information. Like, this is, this is what everybody's grandma used to do. They'd throw them underneath the house. They'd, you know, throw them in a closet and like, are they effective? Yeah. But like, they're also effective against you.

Yeah.

So, and there's a reason your nose gets irritated when you're around them.

Nose, your throat burns.

Yeah.

The whole nine yards.

Your, your body literally is giving you warning signals like, we have a problem here. Like, there's something irritating us and you need to either remove the item Or yourself from the area.

Kind of like the first time you drank alcohol, right?

Yeah.

Your body was like, this is a warning, you shouldn't do this. And your other judgment went, maybe just a little bit more.

Maybe I'm good. Maybe I'm fine. And we got a little tougher. So, well, so, okay, so here's, here's, here's the other one.

Yep.

This one, and this one's a little more recent. And I just dealt with this one last week. Um, this— the, the, the mouse one, like, that's irritating to me. One, because the woman's in the wheelchair, and then when she called them and said, hey, there's a mouse still in my garage, they're like, oh, there's nothing we can do. You live next to a field. It's just something you're gonna have to live with. It's like, no, you told her it was gonna fix it. Fix it, you know? And did nothing. And it's like, she's like, I spent 15 grand. And they're like, yeah, that's great. Good for you.

I'd be calling the state attorney general. Oh, dude.

Well, when you're, when, when, but that's the problem though, man, is like, I know when you have someone that's in dire straits and just needs the sale to happen so that she can move on with her life, she doesn't have time to like go through all the, and they know that.

Yep.

They know that. Um, anyway, this other one, and I don't even know, like neither, none, neither of these stories have I made money off of, by the way. Like neither one, but I've just consulted and for zero money because you're an expert. Well, no, I get called and like like I I just I couldn't resist. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I'll put stuff on the wall. This one guy and this is an area of Houston called Champion Forest.

Oh yeah.

I know you're familiar with it. They used to be like really close to your beat.

Yeah, that was my beat.

Was your beat? Yeah. Um, so guy calls me and says that he has drywood termites. Um, so, and what I tell him, I was like, no, not those. Those are— sorry, Steve.

Hey, I'll show you. Sorry.

No, you're good. So what Steve is alluding to is I have this, uh, see if I can get it on camera. Yeah, this is a Uh, these are actually— it's a Formosan termite gallery that's here on the, uh, the podcast table. I actually collected that from a customer's home. Um, let me get that out of the way. But, uh, yeah, uh, guy in Champion Forest tells me that he's got drywood termites because, again, same company tells him that he's got drywood termites.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm like, okay, like, that's interesting. Based on what? So he, this. Muchas gracias. You're welcome. He goes, he sends me a picture, and it looks like termite frass on the wall, on the ground. And I was like, well, I mean, it's possible that that's what that is, but I don't know without you know coming there and looking and seeing the circumstances. I said, but I'll tell you this: if it's drywood termites in Champion Forest, you and I need to go buy a lotto ticket. Today. And he's like, why? And I'm like, because you'll be the first recorded case in the history of the world to have drywood termites this far north in Houston. I was like, there is a demarcation line in

the Heights that they will not go north of. And I don't know why, but they've never gone north of there. And we, they're just not here. I was like, now, is it possible? Totally possible.

For sure.

But the likelihood of that? No. And I was like, why did he tell you that? He said, well, this is on the first floor, but when he went up in the attic, he said they were everywhere. And I was like, that's interesting. And like, I know, I know a few things about drywood termites and they do go up and they can make a big mess. And so I was like, if you want me to come take a look at it, I'll come take a look at it.

Which, not to interrupt you.

No, go ahead.

Curiosity, because I'm not a bug guy, right? Because if y'all don't know, every time I get a bug in the backyard, I don't know what it is. I take a picture of it. I send it to Craig, and I'm like, "What is this?" The heck with Google. I got Craig. Sure. More reliable. Yeah, probably. What are the ones that when daylight hits termites, they die?

They just all of them.

Oh, is there all of them? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't know if it was like well, I say that.

I say that authoritatively. There may be like an Australian version. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

All the ones that are here. Daylight kills them. So not like, not immediately, but that's why they build things like that.

For sure.

Because it's a protection system to— they can control the humidity, they can control the temperature, and they're not exposed to UV rays. And so it doesn't dry them out. Like anybody that's seen like termites in this area, they're white. And so they're highly susceptible to UV and heat. Um, not like they don't— I'm not saying they need to be like 65 degrees or anything like that, but like, you know, high temperatures will dry them out and they'll die really, really quickly.

Gotcha.

Um, I'm sorry, I didn't— no, no, no, that's—

interrupt. I just was curious, you know, because when I was growing up, I was always told, you know, daylight kills them.

Yes.

So that's why I thought, well, I wonder which ones those are.

So Yeah, yeah. The only exception to that would be swarmers, and they turn black when they swarm. Most of them turn black when they swarm. Um, Formosans kind of turn like an orangey brown, but they, they just, they look completely different from when they're normal.

Right.

Gotcha. Um, so all that to say, um, this guy, he's telling me, he's like, yeah, well, they told me that they're all over the attic. And so I need to replace my insulation, and that that's going to fix the drywood termites, and it's going to cost me $16,000. So I'm looking for some additional quotes, and I'm like, okay, um, that's not a treatment ever in the history of mankind. Has that ever been a treatment for termites? It's just not a thing. I was like, I mean, like, I don't even have to come look at your house. Like, that's, that's not a treatment for termites, right?

Right.

Like, did they tell you that they're gonna do anything else to fix the termites? He's like, no, they're just gonna replace the insulation.

Why?

'Cause it's pest resistant and they're in the attic. Okay, that's not a thing.

Right.

Like, that's— no, I've been going to termite school for years. Like, no one has ever said, you know what, we should replace the insulation to kill the termites. And not just kill the termites, but like prevent them from ever coming back.

You know, when I first started, you know, I work with a lot of electricians, a lot of plumbers, and a few pest control people. And no one had ever like came at me about like removing insulation because of pest waste, right?

Right.

So, you know, typical Steve, right? Why would you have to?

Yeah.

So—

There are reasons.

Exactly.

For sure, yeah.

You know, like the CDC back when everybody believed the CDC, you know, rat urine or mouse urine in fiberglass creates a noxious gas. But then you go on—

I don't know that that's true, but it could— it totally could be.

Yeah, you go on to read and it says like only 4% of the world's population could be affected by it. Affected by it. Gotcha. Yeah, but the first paragraph is, oh my Lord, right? You know, So, but, you know, so that's when I started getting into the whole vacuuming out gig, right? And it wasn't for just that. I mean, we need to vacuum out when you, you know, your insulation's just shot, right? It's got to come out. But that's where we started with that. And I do more vacuum outs because of pet waste.

Sure.

Than I do because insulation is shot.

And that actually makes sense to me.

It does to me too. You know, like if you get a bat, oh, it's all got to come out.

Yeah.

Right.

That's toxic.

Oh, horribly.

What do you guys— I mean, you guys have to wear like full respirators too. Yeah.

Yep.

I mean, do you guys do that anyway? Or is that like—

We wear dust masks.

Okay. Because like N95s or— yeah. Yeah.

Because what we're doing is, is when we're vacuuming, we're not kicking it up because I mean, literally The hose is 6 inches around.

Right.

I mean, it's taking it up substantially. Yeah. But when we're up there with any type of bat, anything, it is 100%. We're wearing gloves, safety goggles, full-face respirators 9 out of 10 times, and Tyvek suits.

Right.

And I tell them, you come across a bat, You either— it either goes in the tube or, you know, you back away from it.

Right, right.

Because one scratch, one claw, one bite, you know, it's bad. Yeah.

Yeah. No, like those, those are tricky too, because even if you— and I don't know if you know about this, but like, because we do, we do quite a bit of like bat exclusions. Um, but there's, and I, I don't know the dates right off the top of my head, but there's certain times of year that it's federally illegal to exclude them from a structure. Like you, you can—

You don't know me very well, do you?

You can go to jail. You can go to like big jail. You can lose license. You can get like $10,000 fine.

If I had bats in my attic, I don't care what time of year it is, they're leaving. Right.

I mean, like, it's, it's, it's bad juju, man. Oh goodness gracious. Yeah, it's— I mean, I'm all good with bats as long as they're not in my house.

I'm fine.

Yeah. But like, but like, we have to follow those rules for sure, you know?

And, you know, hey, at least you have rules and, and regulations that you're licensed by.

Right.

Right. I'm dealing with the Wild West.

Sure.

Right. My, you know, unfortunately in the state of Texas, you do not have to have a license to apply insulation.

Would you like there to be?

Oh God.

You think, you think that would be a better situation?

I do.

I do.

Because there are a lot of people out here that do not, and I'll repeat that, they do not know what they're doing.

Right.

And you're messing with people's homes.

Yeah.

And especially on the spray foam side.

Oh yeah, that one. That one. I'm, I'm like, what, what is wrong with you people? Like, who's— like, there's serious science involved with that stuff.

Yeah. I mean, if you're, if you know, you want to freak somebody out, go to sprayfoamlawsuits.com. Oh gosh. But, but understand every lawsuit that's ever been filed Is on there. So you've got like a bazillion pages, but they probably start in the '60s. You know, I mean, come on, give me a break, right? I mean, you know, half the problem is, is if foam is not mixed properly, it will always degas. Always.

What does it mean when you say degas?

So when you have an A and a B chemical and they, and they impingement mix and they're, they're mixed properly— here, let me, let me back that up. I'll, I'll say it this way. When you buy a new car and you get in it and you're like, oh, I love that smell, right?

Right.

Which just makes me sick to my stomach every time I get in it because 99% of it, that smell is the plastics off-gassing because plastic takes longer to cure.

Yeah.

Right? It cures as time goes by, right? So foam, when it cures, there's an initial flash, the rise, and then everybody sees what it is and they're like, oh, it's cured.

No, not quite.

It, it's still curing, right?

Uh-huh.

So after 12 hours, if foam is sprayed properly, there, there is no— there, there's no gases that you're breathing. You just have the odor of the foam. You probably have more gases that you're breathing when you go buy a brand new car, right? Because you got plastic in the, the, the, the dash, gauges, carpet, you know, it just goes on and on and on and on. And it's safe, but there's a lot of it there.

Sure.

Right? So if it's not mixed properly, it will always degas because it's always trying to cure, but it can't because it doesn't have the right mixture. And there are a lot of people that are very, very affected to that, right? So—

What do you mean? Like, they're sensitive to it?

Oh, big time.

Okay.

Yeah. So, you know, in the industry, as time has went on, you know, they've built equipment. If you're off more than 500 PSI, The machine shuts off. It says, hey dummy, this doesn't work right.

Right.

Come fix me. Right? So, I mean, we have some fail-safes in place to protect not only the company and ourselves, but our customers. And, you know, you got guys out here turning that stuff off. They're just running wild. I mean, it's the Wild West, you know? And the worst part of it is Is like, and, and I say this all the time, imagine if your competition could just go buy chemicals anytime they wanted to and charge whatever they want to and not cover all the insurances.

Right.

Right? That's what I deal with. You know, there's a reason that XYZ person outbid me by $4,000 or $5,000 or whatever is because all they're making is $1,000 off this job. They're not covering $5 million in, you know, you know, business insurance and liability. They don't have workers' comp. They don't, you know, they don't carry all the things that you should carry to be a real company.

Right.

And they're just, they're willy-nilly doing stuff in your house. And you're like, yeah, I'm getting a great deal until they do it wrong.

Right.

And then you call a guy like me and I come in and I'm like, what in God's name happened here? Yeah.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. This, but like, so we, we have a similar issue. We don't, we don't have the Wild West because like, you know, you're supposed to be, you're supposed to be licensed in the state of Texas. And I think pretty much all 50 states, pest control stuff, you have to be licensed mostly because people are very, uh, cautious when it comes to chemicals.

Well, you're poisoning things.

Yes. 100%. Um, the pro— so this is what I've been telling people for months now. is gird your loins because they're going to be adjusting FIFRA very, very soon, um, which is the Insecticide and Rodenticide Act. Um, and what's going to happen, what, what we've been told so far is pretty much every rodenticide, every effective rodenticide that we have on the market right now that you can go pick up at Lowe's and Home Depot, Ace—

That's going away, right?

They're taking them off the shelf. You know, and what that's gonna do is it's gonna skyrocket the price of rodent work because they're like, no longer are the manufacturers gonna be able to produce as much as they were before and sell it cheaply, right, to homeowners.

For sure.

So there's gonna be a limited supply, which is gonna skyrocket the price to guys like me, which are then gonna have to turn around and pass that cost on to our clients.

Absolutely.

know, and it's, it's going to quadruple the, the cost of rodent work. And rodent work ain't cheap now.

Right. It's just going to get worse.

It's going to get way worse.

Well, I mean, but on the other hand, it's going to be safer because most people that apply this stuff don't know what they're doing.

Well, that's that, right? This is, this is the problem, right? Is it— this has always been the problem. I, I don't know that it's gonna be any safer. I mean, just, just from my perspective.

Okay.

I don't know that it's gonna be any safer because I've met some of my competition.

Most of them are morons. Right? Okay. Okay.

You know, and I get it. And, and they, they tend to ascribe to the same philosophy that the homeowner does. And, and that is, and this is, this is the, what part of what they're trying to like wrangle right now.

Let me guess. If a little's good, a lot's better.

You got it. You got it. And, and so what they're trying to wrangle is you have these online marketplaces where you can buy everything. And so, you know, California is squawking like a stuck pig because they've banned all these products, but they can't keep these multinational corporations that do shipping across the world from you, California resident, buying a product that's perfectly legal in Texas and then having it shipped to California where they can use it on their house. You know, and there's nothing they can do about it.

For sure.

You know, to keep, to keep them from doing it. And, and so now the federal government is trying to get involved and going, okay, like, we can't ship pesticides across state lines. And like, all the, all the manufacturers and all the shipping companies are like, what the hell?

Yeah.

Like, why not? We're not sending, we're not selling to licensed individuals.

Yeah.

We're selling to individuals.

Mm-hmm.

And I, I get the problem and like, it's, it's probably the same thing for you, right?

Well, so there is a movement in my industry that the manufacturers are kind of getting on board with the thought process. that the Wild West is bad for business, right?

So in the long run.

Yeah, yeah. And, and, and we're at the long run, right? So I think what— and, and this is conjecture on my part, so, so don't— nobody's told me this, but I think what you're going to see is there are some associations that are trying to, we, to reel this in somewhat. And I think what you're going to see is applicator certifications. And if you do not hold a certification, they're just going to quit selling to you because you're bad for their business in the long run.

Yeah, they don't want you associated with their products.

Right. And what happens right now is I go out hypothetically Say that online. And I do a bad job somewhere. And I come out and say, nope, not me. It is XYZ Chemical Company. Well, they come out, they take a core sample, they go back. And what a lot of people don't realize is every time that they do a batch of foam, they keep a raw sample of that.

Mm-hmm.

for X amount of years until its shelf life is just beyond, and then they'll destroy it. And if they have a claim, oh, it's bad chemical, Mm-hmm. they'll go back, they'll get that chemical, they'll pull it out, and they'll spray it, and they'll, and they'll test it, and they'll be able to prove applicator issue or manufacturing issue.

Okay.

And I come from the manufacturing side. This is the reason I know this. And I will tell you, in the almost 10 years that I worked for a chemical company, it was never the chemical company's fault. And I would say, even if it could have been the chemical company's fault, it was never the chemical company's fault.

Right?

So they hang the applicator out to dry.

Sure.

Right? Because They don't want the lawsuit.

No.

And with all that said, so now you turn right around and you get a chuck in a truck and that guy screws it up. Then you call a company like, and I'm gonna use like Huntsman or BSFA or big multinational, huge chemical company. And they come out there and they're like, not our fault. It just makes the whole industry look horrible, right? Because Huntsman's not going to own that. They're not going to replace that guy's house. They're not going to fix it.

Yeah.

And then you flip the script, but this guy's going to get on social media and just everything about foam is horrible, right? My son says it all the time. He goes, every time I get TikTok, Instagram, you know, anything of that nature, He's like, these people that do a good job get roasted by all these people that don't know what they're talking about, but they know somebody that knew somebody that knew somebody that was related to somebody that knew somebody that knew somebody that had a bad experience, right? And it's just like one of his bandmates, uh, was over in West Texas and he's like, he goes, put that on TikTok or Instagram, man, that'd be awesome, blah blah blah blah. And White's like, No. Yeah, I'm

not doing it. And I'm like, I get it, right? Because I mean, I get some grief every now and again, but you know, I, I'm argumentative enough. I'm gonna come back with facts.

Yeah.

I'm gonna, you know, look, yeah, you live in Wisconsin. I don't know, I'm just making that up. You know, I'm in, I'm in Houston. I'm Region 2. You're Region 5. You can do whatever you want up there. You don't have the humidity that I have. You know, blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Yeah.

And and so I don't have a problem. You know, educating somebody that's an internet warrior, right? As opposed to like my son's like, "Felipe, I'm out." Yeah.

Well, like I I see it. I mean, like if the if the manufacturers are creating these associations so that they can license people through, it's it's.

It's, yeah, it's a certification. Right, right.

They can certify people through. I mean, the nefarious side of my brain goes to, oh, if you're certifying these people, then you can say they didn't apply it right, which makes you less appealing to a lawsuit if something goes wrong. And then you can, like you said, hang those guys out to dry. So like, I'm not saying that that was their intent.

No, no.

But like, it's smart. smart to do it that way because, you know, if you're, if you're a homeowner and you're looking at you versus Huntsman, like, and your attorney goes, well, who do you wanna sue?

Huntsman.

Well, yeah, they, they look way more, for sure. They look like they can pay.

So they're, it's not the manufacturers that created the associations. Okay. No, they're not. It's, it's other spray foam applicators.

Oh, it's like a, What do you call it?

It's an association.

Association.

Thank you. And, and, and it— every year it grows a little bit more. And one of them is straight from Facebook, and it just became a page where people bounced ideas around.

Okay.

It was a— it was meant to be a resource. Right. And you get some of these guys on there that are just jackwipes. Right. They're so— no, they're— yeah, they're so they can't get over themselves, you know, types. But, you know, it's, it's nice because say you come up with a project and I've never sprayed a 3.8-pound closed-cell roofing foam that has been engineered to be on the interior ceiling, right?

Mm-hmm.

What's my starting temps, right? I've never sprayed this before. Take a picture, put it on there. someone in the US or, or North America or even Europe is going to pipe up and go, hey, I've used that once, we had luck at this, maybe start there. You know, that's kind of what it was started for, and, and it's evolved. And SPFA really has kind of taken it to another level, and they brought in a lot of, uh, building science and that kind of stuff.

Right.

But I mean, that's, that's kind of the gist of I think where it goes, right? But I think, I think we're gonna see in the next— well, you know, the big beautiful bill killed us, right? So if you built a brand new house and I spray foamed it, you get to take $5,000 as a tax credit. No, 2026, you can't. It's gone. It's gone.

Okay. So, so we only, we only have like What is it, like, 6 months? 6 months left? Yeah.

So, you know, when, when they, when they did away with all the, the, the solar credits and the wind and the, and all that kind of stuff, they gutted all of it. You know, you used to get big tax credits for a new AC unit.

Right.

Gone. Oh. All of it's gone. All of it. All the whole construction industry. Gutted on tax credits. So I think you're gonna see in the next couple of years, I think the building code's gonna change. Oh, because you kind of— you're— you start to sniff the rumor, right?

Right.

And I think that you're gonna see R-22 in walls. R-13's been the norm since I don't know, since, you know, Christ was corporal, as my dad would say, right? I mean, that's been a long time, right? So to get— so if you take an R-13 batt insulation and you put it in a 3 5/8 cavity, which a 2x4 wall is, it's only R-11 because you smash the fiberglass by the time you put the construction on it.

Yeah, yeah.

So if you want R-22, you're gonna have to have a 2x6 wall.

Oh, okay. Yeah, but that makes sense. Yeah, yeah.

Right, because you need that volume. Well, what's more expensive, building your exterior walls out of 2x6 or stay at a 2x4 and spray foam it instead? So I think, crystal ball, nobody's told me, but I think that's where it's going. Yeah, because Austin has dabbled with R49.

Oh, really?

Where it really, in code code, if you look at Blue Star Energy in Region 2 is R30, Houston is R38. That's what I'm saying. I think, I think I see, or I think what is coming is you're gonna see the wall code change and the attic be like R-50 or better. And, and when you do that, then I think you get back to the fact of, well, what costs, you know, less in the long run.

Right.

Right?

Yeah. So, I mean, like, if, but like, if you were building one right now, like, what would you, what would you throw in there?

So, you know, you need a moisture barrier, right? And everybody Tyvek's a house. But if you spray foamed closed-cell foam in the walls at 2 inches, that's a moisture barrier.

Mm-hmm.

At R-14, which would feel like an R-40. So I think if I was gonna build one right now, I think I would, I would closed-cell foam the walls and 3 inches or 3 to 4 inches in the roof deck.

So would you, I mean, so no moisture barrier at all? No Tyvek?

Don't need to.

I mean, so you put it, put up the exterior walls and then insulate?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Because then I glue it together. Uh-huh.

I mean, that makes sense. I mean, but what happens, you know, does it matter the, uh, siding?

Yeah. Yeah. If, if you went with like a Hardie plank or something like that, you're still gonna have to do the blue fiberglass wallboard on the outside.

Okay.

And then you're gonna, you know, you're gonna foam the back of that. Yeah, you're gonna waterproof the tape and so on and so forth. But on that OBS on the interior, you spray that, that closed-cell foam, and you're gonna seal it up tight.

Okay.

Right, with that wallboard on the outside, the closed-cell on the inside, you're gonna have a tight seal on that house. You know, you're getting, as my dad would always say, you'll be able to air condition that with an ice cube and a fan. Heat it with a match.

Yeah.

You know, but I mean, it'll be very, very, very tight, you know, and then you can go to a '92 furnace.

Right, right.

With the newer AC system with a fresh air intake at probably like 10% fresh air coming in, you'll be able to heat and cool that house for, and I'm, And I'm being realistic when I say, you know, you take a 2,500, 3,000 square foot house, you'll be able to air condition that thing for $100 to $150 a month.

Yeah.

And be like a meat locker. Yeah.

Well, I mean, is there any, like, when it comes to like heat sources, um, with, with foam and things like that, is there anything people need to be aware, like, should, could you not have like a wood fireplace? Could you not have a gas fireplace? Could you, You know, propane heaters, I mean, different things like that. I mean, like, is some of that affected by any of that?

Or is it— It really is. Because like, when you have a fireplace, you're gonna have to have the, the fan installed, because it's not going to draft right. It's funny, we went to a house, I had a lady call me in Cyprus. And she's like, I can't make this house work to save my life. And I'm like, What? You know, you get these oddball calls. Sure.

Yeah.

And so I drive all the way out there and I'm thinking, what in the world? Why, why can't this house perform properly? What are you talking about? So I get there and they light the fireplace and it's in the winter. So thank God, you're right. And immediately the house starts filling up with smoke. I'm like, what in the world? And they're like, we can't enjoy a fire. I'm like, well, you live in Houston. What do you need a fire for? Like 3 days out of the whole year?

You know? I want one, dang it.

Yeah, yeah. So I'm like, huh. So just out of curiosity, I went over to the other side of the house and I just opened a window for this supreme reason that my eyes were watering more than anything else. And instantly that chimney started to draft. You're so tight, the house does not bleed from anywhere. I mean, the company that sprayed foam in there did a fantastic job, right? I have no complaint. But nobody took into the thought process, we got to be able to draft. Right?

Yeah.

So you're gonna have—

The house just breathes different when it's airtight, right? I mean, like, we tell people that all the time. It's like, we're like, seal this up from bugs. You really don't want us to do that. It's like, House needs to breathe.

You, you know, I prescribe to the thought process that you either ventilate the bejeebies out of it, right? I always use the old baseball term. At the trade deadline, what do you do? You go after pitching, pitching, pitching, pitching, and more pitching. When you think you have enough pitching, probably go look for some more pitching, right? Yeah, because you only can take the horses, right, to the series that you have. Yeah, well, I ventilate, ventilate, ventilate, ventilate, and if you got enough ventilation, This is Houston.

Ventilate.

Ventilate. Yeah.

Or encapsulate.

Encapsulate and condition. It's, it's one or the other. There is— you can't put— I go to houses that spray foam guys do, and the ridge vents open, soffit vents open, and they're like, I've got 85% humidity in my attic. Yeah, you know, you foam the bejeebies out of everything. The house has still got outside air in. It's gonna sweat. Yeah, it's just, it is what it is, right? Or, or the one I really love is they encapsulate it and they do nothing with the air conditioner.

Yeah.

I mean, Kevin calls me, right? Your cohort, right? Oh yeah.

Calls me and he's the empty seat over here.

Yeah. Yeah. He calls me. He says, hey, You know, we the builder, you know, went with we went with foam. I've got a problem, and you could tell he was embarrassed, right? Because he's calling somebody that bid it that didn't get it.

Right.

But now I've got a problem, right? And I'm like, okay. And Kevin's good friend, so I'm like, okay, tell me what the problem is. He says, well, you know, we we got this da da da da, you know, and and the attic's you know eighty five ninety degrees. We can't get the house any cooler than 80 degrees, but it's foamed. I'm like, what? I'm like, well, who's the AC guy? And he tells me, and I'm like, does he know anything about foam? Because there are AC guys out there that tell you they know all about foam and they don't know.

They don't know about foam.

Right, right. And, um, so he calls a friend of mine. I tell him, I'm like, here, um, call one of these 3 guys. And he calls Brian, good friend of mine. Um, Brian goes out there and goes, who spray foamed this? And, and Kevin's like, well, what do you mean? He goes, well, they're not finished. And he goes, well, yeah, they are. He goes, well, why is that over the, the, uh, um, porch area is wide open? So all the heat from below on the metal—

Going right up in the attic.

Going right up in the attic. And he goes, and Why isn't that closed? Why isn't that done? So Kevin calls me, I go out there, take a quick look at it. I'm like, well, you know, you got to close it and then you got to condition it. And the builder was like, what do you mean? Yeah, you're a builder, right?

If you're going to foam on a regular basis, you better know what you're doing.

Yeah. Because you're, you're, you're creating either a hot box Or you, you get it completely closed up and then you, you, you create an aquarium.

Yeah.

Because it's going to get wet and it's going to grow brown and black stuff and you can't have it. It doesn't work both ways, folks. It's one or the other. Yeah, that's it.

I think I told you about my friends. They've been out of their house now for like almost—

This is the one with the picture on the wall? Yes. Oh yeah. Go ahead.

Tell them. Yeah. No, I mean, it's the same thing. I mean, it was like they didn't— they they foamed everything and then didn't put a send and return in the attic, you know, which is a big no-no from what I under— I'm no, I'm no scientist when it comes to foaming, but like, if you're gonna foam a house and you're gonna put foam in the attic, you better put— have air circulation in the attic. Otherwise you've got a giant, you know, igloo cooler that's just gonna grow mold.

Right.

And, and that's exactly what happened. And they couldn't figure out for the longest time why they were sick.

Oh, absolutely.

You know, and, and finally, I, I think it was the wife pulled a picture frame off the wall, and everything behind the picture frame was just black speckled on the wall. And it was, it was just a freaking nightmare.

So I went to one in Point Aquarius, and I got called into this one.

I know that neighborhood.

Um, I got pulled into this one, and, um, Air-conditioned friend of ours pulled me into this and he's like, look, um, whoever did this didn't do a very good job. I'm like, okay. So I went over and the guy that he generally uses wanted to rip it all out instead of just fixing the problems and start from scratch and charge a buttload of money.

Right.

And, um, So he installed the AC units and they're back to the point where they got water again.

Mm-hmm.

And he's blaming the foam. And so hence again, you, you get— I could find 5 AC guys and 5 spray foamers and I could probably come up with 10 different ways to do this.

Yeah, yeah.

But they all work in, in a degree of one way or the other. And, um, they put a, uh, What's the new systems that, that, um, talking about mini splits? No, no, no. The new ones where like this room doesn't need air conditioning, but the next one does more.

Oh, uh, variable speed.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And they had the settings all wrong. And it was literally the attics were like 80 to 90% humidity. And it was because the, the, the settings in the unit were wrong. Therefore, the, the return and the send was working against them. Yeah, it was. I mean, I stood there and I'm like, look, this is not my— I'm the foam guy. This is not my wheelhouse.

This is not my thing.

But this doesn't look right. But if I opened up the attic door and left it open, you could actually— he, he installed some humidity monitors. So it was like downloading per hour onto its phone. You could literally watch the humidity tick lower.

As it drew it out?

Just by opening up to— so it breathed to the rest of the house. It just ticked a little bit lower. And I, you know, I, I, uh, I ended up having to, uh, send my, my regular AC guy that I use out there. And Frank calls me and goes, what did you hit me in the middle of it. I'm like, well, you know, but, but the thing of it is, is you're welcome. Yeah, yeah. If, if you know the old saying, you only know what you know, right? And, and if you've never been there and seen it, you don't know, right?

And that—

and the poor guy didn't know.

Yeah, well, I think that's the problem with, with foam, is there's— it's, it's still new enough That most people don't know a darn thing about it.

No, what happened is in the early '70s, Houston was the hotbed because this is where it was all made. And they tried to use it. And the AC people just, if it was a 5-ton house, regularly they put a 5-ton unit in.

Right.

Well, you're not, generally you would put like a 4-ton unit in. Hence again, not my wheelhouse. Yeah, I'm using that for an example. So it would run longer, right? They didn't do that. Everybody had problems. The lawsuits flew. But Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, Florida, the Carolinas, all these people have as much humidity as we do, yet they've been using it longer than we have in Houston.

Mm-hmm.

It's because this is where it started and failed. Everybody sued everybody. So everybody's been afraid of it. Now it's came back around. But there's technology there. There's multitude of people in the industries that know how to do this now. It's just, it's the, it's the old saying in the oil industry, right? Why would I change something now? We've been doing it that way for 40, 50 years.

Yeah. Works.

Not, not that there's something better, but that works.

Yeah.

And that's kind of what Houston's just having to grow up. Yeah. Now to it.

We've, we've been needing that, take that pill for a while.

Yes.

So, well, we're, we're about to run outta power. Um, so we might wanna wrap it up. Uh, any, any, any parting words for— I know we, we've covered a bunch of stuff. We covered a couple scandals. I mean, I will, I will tell you the one that I was, I was talking about earlier, the way that one kind of finished is what the, what the other pest control companies thought was sawdust. in the attics ended up being actually a pesticide, a granule pesticide that someone had put out in the attic. And so they had convinced the guy that the granule pesticide was sawdust in the attic, and that's why he needed to then vacuum it all up, because he thought it was a bunch of termite poop, which, you know—

Not much of a pest control guy, is he?

No, no, no. So he's a pretty darn good insulation salesman. So, but like, easy, easy. I mean, look, I mean, everybody's got their skills for sure. So, but I mean, like, if, if, if you had to leave everybody with, with anything or any, any parting words on any of this kind of stuff, I mean, like, I know it's something you deal with on the daily. Um, but what, what would you wanna tell everybody?

I think that, that the number one, going back to this whole cellulose thing is I, I think that I would tell everybody this. I would get a minimum of 4 4 different estimates. And, and, and I would go from insulation contractors to pest control people, and I would ask multiple different companies to come in and give me estimates. Because if you're at $10,000 and everybody else is down in the $4,000 to $5,000, ask questions. Yeah, there's a problem there.

Yeah.

Right? An obvious problem.

Yeah.

And, and I, I will tell you that air conditioning people, insulation people, and pest control people, you have the lion's share of them are very decent, honorable individuals. But always know that you got a Chuck in a truck and you got people that are, are just scammers.

Yeah.

Right? And if it's too good to be true, it's, it's too good to be true.

Yeah.

Right? If, if you're getting, you know, somebody comes in and says, well, I'll do that job for $900 and everybody else is at $1,500, there's a problem with that $900 one.

Yeah.

Right? So I, I just would always tell everybody, doesn't matter what home improvement that you do, just make sure that you get multiple estimates because like the Better Business Bureau, you know, in my opinion, hence my point, in my opinion, it's a pay-to-play.

Yeah.

If I pay a lot of money, I can get a 4-star review.

For sure.

So I don't trust Angie's List. I don't trust, you know, the Better Business Bureau. I don't trust those people. I trust, you know, lining up those estimates and looking at what their pricing is. Because the guy that's way too high, that's an issue. The guy that's way, way, way, way too cheap, but you got 2 or 3 of them, they're all within a couple hundred bucks of each other, that's your honest guys.

Yeah, right.

They're, they're in it to make a living because that's what we're here for. But on the other hand, we're not here to rob anybody either. We're here to do a good job and be honorable.

Yeah, yeah. I, and I'll add to that, just become a good question asker.

Oh, for sure.

You know, be, be a good interrogator. Um, I, I think that's a key skill that most people just miss out on. And, and guys like us don't mind it.

I, I encourage it.

I welcome it because it's like, you may ask me a question I've never heard before and I want to know that question.

Yep. Then I'm gonna hunt for, for the answer, right? And always remember, you know, just because Billy Bob on the corner used ABC 123 Company Doesn't mean that's the company to use.

Sure.

Right. It's, it's when you get online and you get, you know, uh, who does pest control and you get 4 or 5 people that say this company and then you get 1 or 2 that says this company and then you get 1 that's got like 10. Well, then message that person that recommended them. What did they do for you?

Right.

Right. Because, you know, I could have 15 relatives. Jumping on this deal that I might not have even done a dang thing for them. Right. But it's because we're friends or we're family. They're trying to get me more business, which I love, by the way.

Thank you very much. Please carry on.

Yeah. But, but my point being is make sure that those are real recommendations.

Yeah.

Right. Because in the end of the day.

Yeah.

Because, oh God, here we go. Drink for Kevin. You wanna make sure you're protected and you are actually getting a reputable company.

Yeah, 100%. All right guys. Uh, hopefully this was, uh, an educational moment for all of you, uh, tonight. We appreciate you guys joining in on the fun. It's always fun to have Steve on the show. Uh, guys, if you have not yet, give us a, uh, subscribe, give us a thumbs up, the heart, the laughy face, whatever it is. Just chime in, leave a comment, let us know that you were listening. We appreciate you guys joining the show. Uh, tune in next week for another episode live here from the studio. And as always, do your research. Hang in there. Talk to you later. Bye.