Doula and Midwifery with Kristina Tamez and Priscilla Brickey

This is episode number 176 of The Homeowner Show. Whether you're DIY or looking to hire, we're here to help you find the best information and options for you and your home. My name is Kevin Hackett, and here with me is Craig Williams.

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to The Homeowner Show. We're so glad that you could join us for another live episode of The Homeowner Show here from the studios Glad you could join us. Somebody's volume is up in the studio. That's okay. We got multiple guests. Who's got it? I don't know.

Someone's louder than the other. Oh, there we go.

We found it.

Yeah, that's right.

Oh, look at that.

Look at the bumpity bumps.

Things are happening.

Yeah, that's right. Hey, it's okay. We're here. It's just a regular night. Chilly night. But things are good. What's up with you, man?

Oh, dude. So I really only have one thing that I want to open the show with, Kev.

Okay.

How about them Cowboys?

Oh my gosh. That's the one thing that I told you I did not want to talk about, you little jerk. I do not want to talk about them.

So, y'all, this is fun for me because I could really just give a flying fart in the wind about professional sports. But Kevin really cares about this stuff. But it's because Dak is his favorite player.

No, he's not. Not only is he not my favorite player, he's my least favorite player. And we had so many things wrong tonight. Okay, y'all, we can go there if you want to, but at the end of the day, we hired the wrong person long term. Uh-huh. He's horrible.

Yep.

He's terrible.

So would you rather have him or you want Aikman back? I mean, even like in his old age and decrepitness?

No, look, here's the thing. Aikman was completely overrated in his day. Absolutely.

That's gonna win you no friends.

Look, he was He was a winner, and he had a supporting cast that were also winners, all the way down to the head coach, right? I'm really, really, really good. Everything was perfect about that team.

Sure.

But we don't have that right now. There's no doubt the Cowboys don't have that all the way down to the head coach. Okay, we got problems. I get it. But at the end of the day, unfortunately, we live in a system where the quarterback gets wins and losses. It falls squarely on their shoulders. Not quite as much as like baseball, that literally falls squarely on their shoulders. But, um, it comes down to that. And look, we're not winning, and that's what it is. And most of you are like, really, the Cowboys? I'm like, yeah, I grew up with the Cowboys. It is what it is. I'm a Cowboys fan through and through. Sorry, y'all Yankees fans. I'm not, I'm not a fan of y'all either, but you grew up with them, and that's fine. You can whatever. So

yeah, I'll just root for Texas Tech for a little while there. Where's my Texas Tech logo?

On the other nipple.

There it is. We're rooting for them. They're doing good, except they lost to like the worst Big 12 team the other day. They beat like number 5 and number 1, and then they lose to like nobody. Who'd they play? Well, they beat Kansas, and then they beat Baylor, and then they lost against I don't remember who it was. Iowa State, I think. It was bad. It was ugly.

Okay.

So anyway.

So anyway, we, we have a really cool episode today.

Yeah, it has nothing to do with any of that.

So what makes it good? Like, even though the, the podcast is like today— what's today? Today is the 16th, January 16th. So the podcast is actually not coming out for like 2 weeks. Sure. But it's, it's like serendipitous that it's today. Do you know why? I think I know something that you don't know.

Is today like an anniversary?

No.

Oh, well then I couldn't know.

Today is a very specific day. I'm gonna ask her.

Oh, I do know. No, I do know.

Oh, hang on. Let me— do you guys know what today is?

I know.

No?

No, I know.

Today is—

Wait, can I say it?

If you really know.

It's your wife's least favorite day of all days in the world.

Well, that is true. Today is my wife's least favorite day of the year.

Okay.

It's her favorite day and it's her least favorite day.

Is it because she gets a little bit of attention or?

No, like, okay, so what Kevin is alluding to is today is Ethel Merman's birthday, which is her least favorite performer.

She hates this person. She hates Ethel Merman.

But that actually was not what I was leading into. Okay. But it is funny, like, on Ethel Merman's birthday, we just spam my wife's Facebook with pictures of Ethel Merman. Yeah. It's a lot of fun.

Yeah, she literally hates this person.

And Ethel Merman is in my favorite movie of all time, which, for those of you wondering, it's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World. Yes, which is a great one. Today, and I don't think these days normally coincide, which I think was a weird thing for her. Today is Sanctity of Human Life Sunday.

Oh, I saw her post about something like that.

Yeah.

That's great. Fantastic.

So, and so if you can read between the lines, we're gonna be talking to some doulas and midwifery and all kinds of words that you and I have no idea what's going on.

Yeah, and midwifery is my favorite word of all time.

It's my new favorite word too.

It's not like I heard it last time we talked to Christina here. But it's like, who gets to say a word like midwifery and it be right?

In a sentence. Yeah.

Like, you say that, it's almost like, hey, something about, I don't know, like, I don't know, midwifery. And you're like, exactly. Yes.

That's the thing.

That's the thing. So yeah, back in the studio. I don't know. It's been a little while. It has.

A little bit over a year.

Yeah, a little bit over a year. Okay, great. We have Christina Tamez, and she is a doula and does midwifery. I don't know if I said that right. She's a midwife.

She does midwifery?

She does midwifery. It's like what you do, like, if you're a witch doctor, right?

A witch doctor?

Yeah.

No.

You do the witch doctor-y thing.

The witch—

This is, she's a midwife and she does the midwifery, right?

No, Priscilla's the midwife.

Priscilla's the midwife. I'm the midwife.

Okay, we'll figure all that out. Either way, we gotta assign titles here. Welcome to the team.

We need badges. That's what we need.

Yeah, we're gonna get this all wrong. Look, whenever you have conversations like this, you just have to, like, put it out there, right?

I completely understand.

Look, we're all gonna be stupid for a little while.

Not all. No, not all of us.

Just the two over here.

Two of us on this side. We're gonna be stupid for a little while. Let y'all figure out why we're stupid. It's not gonna take long. And, um, all that. So Christina, tell it for those of you who may not have heard the last episode. Shame on you. Go back and listen.

Yes.

Uh, please tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Okay. My name is Christina Tamez and I'm a nurse by trade. I have turned doula, and doula is Greek and it means woman servant. So that's what I do for a woman in labor. I serve her needs. I anticipate what she needs, and I'm there to serve her, to make her comfortable in the labor process. Okay, so that's what I do, um, in this realm. I do that in the hospital, I do that in a birth center, or I can do that in a home setting.

Okay, all right, great. And, uh, you brought a guest in with you, but she's, she's your employee, she works with you, she's your partner. All those things. You're our business partners. Not— you're not an employee, you're a partner, right? You're the other half.

Demoted you. Look at that.

Look, I'm starting off early being stupid. The only thing I wasn't stupid about was Dak. Okay, that was not stupid. That was smart. Time will tell. Yeah, no, the time is already told anyway. Um, but, uh, Priscilla, welcome. We're glad you're here. Welcome to the Homeowner Studio. Tell us a little bit about yourself and, uh, how you got into partnering here with Christina.

Sure.

So my name is Priscilla Bricky, and my background back 20 years ago started in massage.

Okay.

And I worked with women in pregnancy, worked at Women's Hospital of Texas. That turned into doula work. And as a doula, I decided to become a midwife. So it's trickled in. over the years, but here I am finally. We have this awesome business, midwifery and doula services that we offer. So—

Okay, great. So, um, along those lines, I mean, I'm sure that the, the road to being, you know, a midwife is really, really long, I would assume, or maybe it's short, but how did you decide I want to do this?

Partly working in the hospitals as a doula.

Okay.

I just felt like there was a better calling for me. So after— if you see the difference between a hospital birth and a home birth, or even a birth center birth, it's night and day. And there's just something to be said about being home and laboring and having a baby and not having the sterile side of a hospital and all the interventions that go along with it and just letting our bodies labor naturally. It's just a better outcome. It's beautiful.

Wow. It's interesting because Craig and I, we've been through this process before, having babies. Craig more than me, but—

Never had any myself.

No. Well, that we know of.

I've been present for some. Yeah.

You know, it was it was wonderful for us, but I don't think I really knew that doulas were a thing. I think I'd probably heard the word once or twice, and I definitely heard the word midwife because that's a little bit more common. Why is it more common?

That's a great question. BBC answer.

Well, so isn't that the network that has the the show?

The Call the Midwife?

Oh yeah.

Is that the one?

Yes.

So A midwife replaces your OB. Yeah, no, you're right.

Yes.

But that's the difference is a midwife replaces the OB. That's the— you're either going to be with an OB in the hospital or a midwife. And some midwives work in the hospital or at home or a birth center. Okay. Doula is more of a support.

Okay. So a midwife is actually going to help deliver Yes. And like, I think that, I think that probably where I— because, okay, I grew up watching old TV shows, you know, like The Andy Griffith Show and Green Acres and Petticoat Junction, like some of these old shows, right? And every once in a while they would just, you know, they had an episode about so-and-so who gave birth and the midwife would come. And I think that's probably where I heard it more than anything because Um, and it is kind of like you said, it's the one who actually came to do the, the procedure, whatever, you know, the giving birth process. And so that's very— that's a

little bit different than the doula, which is giving the support.

Correct.

Correct. Okay, so back in the day, in those, you know, we're talking early 19th century, it was a woman's event to have birth. And typically the men were still at work or they were in another room. Okay, so the, the one— the birthing woman is surrounded by either her mother, her sister, her aunt. Um, it's a woman thing. Like, one's getting warm towels, another is, is rubbing her back, another is helping her get off the bed. She wants to stoop, or she wants to get from a squat position into the bed. It's, it's about a, a women event.

Okay.

Women supporting women. And it wasn't until the hospital births started, um, getting traction because of penicillin that they invited men to go in. And even at that, they weren't allowed in the labor room. My dad was— I'm 52— my dad was not allowed in the labor room.

Wow.

He was in the waiting room, and they came out, the nurse came out and said, it's a girl. And, you know, he got all teary and, you know, all nervous. He was there with my uncle, and he said, quick, he handed my uncle a bunch of, um, quarters and said, go call everybody. So, you know, it was payphone time.

Wow.

Um, so, you know, I'm happy men are in the room, in the hospital room. I'm happy they're there. But at the same time, they're not always as educated as they need to be.

Shocker.

Or equipped. Yeah, they may, they may have read all the books, but they're not equipped. And that's where the doula comes in.

And that's a huge thing because I think, um, Like, I know whenever I— whenever we had our first child, it was like, you know, you need to go to the birthing class. And it's kind of not a requirement, but it was highly, you know, encouraged. And I went. I think a lot of men are just uncomfortable.

Sure.

With the, with the terms.

Yes.

With the body parts.

Yes.

With the things that are happening.

Yes.

And I think that's why they were always like, go get the boiling water, because it took a while. I don't know, get you away from here. I don't know, like, keeps you occupied. Keeps you occupied, right? But I do think it's important because Um, and, and not to get too off topic here, but I think that, um, especially with the whole sanctity of life thing and everything, they— you know, we, Craig and I, are definitely huge supporters of family.

Yes.

In general.

Yes.

And in today's world, it's just a different— like, there's a lot more people that don't have a family around them when they're giving birth.

Correct.

And we love that the, the more you can involve family in every aspect, I think, is, is healthy. And so I, I really love that. So I, I guess do this, um, tell us a little bit about what, what is that process like? How do you educate the husbands or the men if they're— even if they're not husbands, how do you kind of go through that process with them?

I'll let you, Priscilla.

Well, it starts in the childbirth class, okay, that we teach. And we had what, 9 dads with us tonight?

Yes.

So, it's a couples class, and we give him the words as well as the hands-on tools on what to do. And some dads, that's a big deal. When they reach out for doula services, they say, what goal or what is the— what role is my husband going to have in this? And it's whatever he wants. You know, what do you see? What is your birth plan? What do you want him to do? What have y'all talked about? And a lot of the dads, they are— they want to go in full force and they want to do everything. We teach them everything that we know. And we get there and they're like a deer in headlights. And they're like, I'm so glad you're here. So, but some

dads, you know, they do it all. Some do, they want to do it all. And we're wiping their foreheads, you know, whatever they need, making sure they're resting or getting something to eat. So we really are support for both mom and dad. But giving the dad the tools to help mom in early labor is really important. And it just gives them more confidence. And I think the mamas, they love it. I mean, they're like, yeah, tell them more, tell them to do more. You know, say it again. What do you say? I love you. You're doing perfect. You know.

You're so strong. I'm so proud of you. Um, a lot of dads get really nervous when mom gets a little vocal, when she's grunting and making primal noises. So we try to get that on the front end and tell dad, it's going to be noisy.

Yeah.

It's going to be noisy. It's going to sound scary. She may even say a few curse words. So we're going to give her grace and we're going to apply it. I always tell them in class, It's kind of like when you go to Vegas. When you go to Vegas, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. What happens in the labor room stays in the labor room. If mama needs to say some bad words and hit a pillow, then we're gonna let her.

Yeah, I, you know, it's interesting that you say that because I think that, um, this is one of— because I, I on occasion wind up talking with married couples for, for various reasons, and, uh, one of the things I tell them is like, look, The time right after you have a child is one of the most stressful, most confusing, most tiring things that you've ever done. And what's going to happen is you're going to wind up having moments where you go, I didn't know that I married that person.

Yeah.

And if I did, I would never have married that person. It's like, okay, well, you need to be a little more confident in yourself, and you need to be a little more graceful to that person, because the reality of it is You're more exhausted than you've ever been in your life. Things are changing. You're, you know, you've got a whole new life stage that you've entered into. And it's just, it's very different. And so you didn't marry that person. You know, you married the person that you know, and you probably just need a nap. And she probably just needs a nap.

Right.

And so I think, I think what you're talking about there is really, really helpful because there's some of this education on the front end that I think if you can, if you can have, it really does. And you mentioned a birth plan. Um, I want to dig into that just a little bit more in a moment. But, um, let me ask you this because you said that you do birthing classes, right? What is different, if anything, about your birthing class than the one that, like, say, the hospital offers? Because We went free of charge. We didn't have to pay. Um, and I don't know if y'all charge for that or if it's just included in your services if you hire you as a doula. But, um,

what, what makes that different?

Well, first of all, we don't have many classes. We have one.

Okay.

So a lot of dads like that. Um, it's not subsequent weeks in a row. It's not 9 weeks, 12 weeks, because I used to teach those classes in the hospital. There is no hospital tour with our class. So, it's a 1-day class. It's usually 4 hours long, 3 or 4 hours. We can also do it privately, but we do offer it every other month in person right here in Conroe. What makes it different in addition to that is that we're teaching a little bit of anatomy and physiology. So, we're making sure everyone's on the same page, like where's the baby even in the body? Baby's in the uterus.

Yeah.

Where is the vagina? Yes, you have 3 holes. And so, you know, we go from the very basic. Then we go into stages of labor, and most moms are somewhat familiar. They've all read some of those books, um, but we like to go over that again. And then we'd like to pinpoint about what, what's happening in that stage of labor to mom, and what is dad or doula doing in response to that. So it's like this horizontal, um, checklist of what's going on in the room.

Okay.

And the closer we get to delivery, those time frames get shorter, but the pain is more intense. So our role as doula becomes far more interactive with mom than in the very beginning when, you know, she's only been in labor like 6 hours. So we like to arrive when, um, she's in active labor, and we like to labor mamas at home. So that is one thing that makes us different from other doulas as well, is that most doulas will only take care of you between 37 weeks and 41. We take care of you the moment you call. So if you're— if you just peed on the stick and it's positive and you want to hire a doula, we can be yours. And you get more bang for your buck if you hire us early because we're available via text

the entire time, 24/7. Sunday afternoon, same price.

Okay.

Sunday afternoon, 2 in the morning, we're yours. We are your Google. We are it. So, um, when it comes time for us to be there with you in labor, we like to go with go to your house, start out labor there, and then we can make decisions when it's time to go. And we caravan, we go together.

That's huge.

It's really big.

Yeah, because I don't know, Greg, I don't know, your experiences obviously are going to vary from mine, but I remember whenever my daughter was born, we scheduled it. It was— she— my wife was induced. Now it's really interesting because she would say she wishes she didn't do that.

A lot of women regret that.

Yeah, and, and it really— it was because it was just a different experience.

Yeah.

And she— and, and, and, and again, for her it was— but you have to know my wife, she's very like plan things out. She needs to know all why this is happening, when, and all the things. So a birthing plan would have been really, really helpful for her. But that's why she did it, because she needed to know like if it's not already happened, that it's gonna happen and everything's gonna be fine. I've got it planned out. She had it under control, right? With my son, my second child, whenever he was born, I was asleep. It was Christmas Eve, and I was asleep. And she woke me up about 3 o'clock in the morning. And she said, hey,

babe, it's time to go to the hospital. And I said, okay, why? She goes, well, I haven't been asleep yet. And my contractions are about 8 minutes apart right now. And that means it's time to go to the hospital. And I said, okay. Okay. Okay. It's okay. It's 3 in the morning. Okay, it's fine.

It's fine. Everything's fine.

Yeah, exactly. And I was like, okay.

Darren headlights, here we go.

I'm so glad that we had a little bit of a plan because we had someone to call.

Yes.

To come take care of our daughter. She was down the road and she answered her phone at 3 o'clock in the morning, which was huge.

Yes.

Ginger, one of my favorite people in the world because of that. And we left. One of my favorite stories to tell of all time is that it's 3 o'clock in the morning and there's nobody out, right? Everybody's asleep, everybody's at home, and I am speeding through the neighborhood and down the, you know, the access road to get to where we're going. And my wife's like, it's fine. We're, we're not even that far away from the hospital. And I'm like, leave me alone. I get one opportunity to speed and do this. Like, it's one— my only chance to do this legally, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, um, she was like, okay, fine. So I was like,

let me have my moment here for just a minute. Um, but I—

And I do tell all my dads when I'm behind them, there's no need to speed.

Yeah, I know.

But drive with your flashers and we're gonna get mom there safely. Yeah.

Oh, that's the other thing though.

It's like, look, who am I gonna run into?

There's no one. There's no one.

Anyway, Santa Claus.

Yeah, I guess Santa Claus was on his way. Um, but I do think that a birthing plan is super important for lots of those reasons. So, uh, I do want to dig into that for a minute.

That is part of the class as well. So everyone's on the same page about anatomy and physiology, what the stages of labor are, when we arrive, what's going to happen when we get there. Um, and then, uh, we have the birth plan, and then either we go to the hospital if it's a hospital birth, or we go to the birth center if it's a birth center birth. If it's happening at home, then we just stay right there. And when it gets closer to the end of labor, then the doula will call the midwife to come in, and she brings all of the equipment to you, which is super nice.

You're already ready, like all these things have been planned. So the— so a lot of the things that you're you know you're going to be unsure about, you've already kind of worked through a little bit.

So dad has the opportunity to ask questions like, where do I stand? Um, you know, who's taking pictures? The doula. So dad can be in the picture.

Okay.

So it gives them a lot less anxiety going in. They know what to expect. They know we're going to answer on the very first text. Priscilla, our phones do not turn off. Uh, we, we answer within the minute.

Wow.

Around the clock.

Wow.

It gives everyone lots of calm.

Sure.

Well, that's something that even doctors' offices don't offer. We get a lot of complaints from our clients. They say, I've left several messages, no one calls me back. Everything's through a portal. You can't get a person on the phone. And they love that they can text us and get on a Zoom call or a phone call. And we're, we're there for them. Within the minute.

Just the ability to communicate with somebody is extremely valuable, I would imagine.

Yes, sometimes, sometimes it's not contractions. It's they think they have a UTI. Sometimes, um, babies are sitting real low and they're having round ligament pain. They don't know they're having round ligament pain, but they're having pain. So once we ask the certain questions— so there is no need to Google it. Yeah, we are the Google, or rush to the ER. Right, right.

So I, I know, I know UTI. What's round ligament pain? I don't— that one's the one I've not heard before. What is that?

Go ahead, Priscilla.

So it's a ligament, uh, it attaches to the uterus. You have a broad ligament and a round ligament, and they tend to get overstretched as the baby— as the uterus grows.

Okay.

And depending on the baby's position, you'll— it's a sharp pain and it feels like a possible contraction. They're confused, they don't know what they're feeling, they just know they have pain.

Okay.

But it's very common.

So for the moms out there, because Kevin and I have no idea what this is like, what, what would they be experiencing I mean, could they tell the difference between a contraction and that?

Sometimes no.

Sometimes no.

Because they'll say it feels like a period cramp. Okay, well, that sounds like a contraction, not a ligament pain. Or it's when I start my cycle, it's right where the ovaries are. Okay, well, that sounds like ligament. So it's troubleshooting, a lot of troubleshooting.

So it's just kind of, again, it's having someone to talk to and ask and kind of whittle it down and go, okay, What exactly are we dealing with?

Yes, right.

Okay.

Yeah, we had a client not long ago. She woke us up in the middle of the night, a little early for a home birth. It was 36 weeks. By law, we cannot do a home birth unless you're 37 to 42 weeks. And so she texted, it was, I don't know what she was, maybe 35 weeks, 36, having pain. And so I was like, hmm. So I went to her house, evaluated her, figured it out that it was round ligament pain and showed her how to wear a support belt. And ever since then, had no pain.

Unbelievable. I mean, that, that is unbelievable. I mean, y'all, I mean, because here's the other thing is 37 weeks, it's early. And even though it's not too early, it's early, right? And, and every, every moment— I mean, and there comes a point where it's not healthy, but every moment that that baby can get the nutrients and the nourishment that your mom is giving—

Every 24 hours, baby's growing.

It's huge, right? And so You know, 3 weeks is a lot of time. And so you just saved that person not only a lot of stress, because that's the main thing probably, but you also probably saved her a trip to the hospital.

Yes.

And who knows who she's gonna get whenever she sees, you know, the hospital. Who knows if she's gonna find who she needs. They can tell her all sorts of things.

Right.

Right? And not only that, there's this whole trust factor.

Yes.

that you've been building this entire time. I just see so many, so much value in this, and it makes me wish that I had known about this service whenever I was younger and had my children. You know, it would have been probably a different story.

Me too. I mean, I— my training is in labor and delivery, so I had my first kid at 25. No such word as doula, right, ever spoken at women's hospital, right? But now it's norm. Now it's norm.

Well, that's pretty big too, like the fact that it's actually a normal thing.

It is normal.

What do you guys think has been the shift in, in either like our family culture or like our mom culture that has, that has made that more mainstream for everybody?

I do think that we need more education about it because, um, during the peak of COVID mothers wanted their mother there and the doula. So we would birth, um, labor mamas at home, and then their mother would go in pretending to be the doula. Oh, you know, so that gave us a really bad rap in COVID time.

Well, because I think a lot of mothers are hyper.

Correct.

Right.

And they really don't know what they're doing.

And I don't mean like, I don't mean like, yeah, off-the-wall hyper. I mean, they're just extra. I just want to make sure I'm clear what we're talking about.

We're talking about the moms of the mom that's having the baby. Correct.

Okay. Correct.

Grandma wanted to be there because that was the plan. And then COVID hit and they weren't able to. So I still think there needs to be far more education. It's not just a person who wants to be in the room, you cannot just call yourself a doula. So that I think there still needs to be a lot more education about it. But I think what's happened is moms, the pregnant mama is starting to realize, I cannot leave this in someone else's hands. that is not a professional. They're understanding through their friends that have had kids, or, you know, bad stories that they read about, that the nurses are not really in the room 24/7, right? They are charting and they're overworked and they're taking care of other clients too,

especially over the last 2 years. Correct. Yeah, correct. So they are realizing, I love you, my dear husband, but this is not your specialty and I need someone dedicated to me.

Yeah, because this— I mean, again, this is— even though this is a pretty normal process, and I'm gonna say that that way, I only say it that way because it's birth. It's, it's, it's, it's a huge deal.

It is.

But a lot, a lot of women experience it.

Yes.

Right? And as far as that goes, it is normal, but it's only something that you do a couple of times, 3 times. I mean, some people a lot more than that, but it's a— it's still rare in your life.

Yes.

And so you don't know. It's not just like something that you did. It's not like riding a bike. Not to mention the fact that number 2 is going to be different than number 1.

Yes.

It's going to feel different. It's going to act different. It's going to be different.

It's going to deliver different. And number 3 is a wild card.

Yes.

Number 3 is the wild one.

Yes.

I know.

Yes.

Because I have 4. I know. 3 is a wild card.

You just, you'd never know, right?

From then and now evermore.

That's true. It's very true.

Some things will never change with number 3.

Yes. My number 3 is 20, gonna be 22, and he is still a wild card.

Yeah, that's right. Okay, so you, you mentioned the buzzword. Okay, so let's get into it for a moment. Um, how has, how has COVID changed things for you? And, and Priscilla, you as well. Um, how has that changed your services? And has it, has it made it intensify? Has it, you know, just kind of Give me the, the 1,000-foot view of what that looks like, how COVID has really changed things for y'all.

Um, so in midwifery, there has been— and I think it goes back to a question we had a second ago— um, I believe it's growing, home birth, um, birth center births, because of the policies in the hospital not letting a second person and a support person, only letting dad in. So the women were fearful that their— the next step was to not let the dad in. So a lot of— we had a lot of transfer, late transfers for home birth.

Mm-hmm.

So in a way, it's good for midwifery. As far as doula services, we used to charge extra to labor women at home. But with COVID when they weren't letting us in, that we just decided we're just going to go to their homes and labor them at home. And if it has to go to Zoom after that, it will. So at least we were still getting in-person hands-on with our clients before they went. And basically the dads were our hands and we would just tell them everything to do.

So you were actually doing this via Zoom for a few patients?

Yes.

Geez.

Wow. So tell me, what was that like?

It's a little crazy. I did once, I was in the parking lot of a hospital. They wouldn't let me in. So I sat in the parking lot and Zoomed for that. Um, yeah, so, uh, it's—

I had my kids over one night, and I live in a 2-bedroom apartment, and, uh, they were all, you know, spread out in the living room, and 2 were in another room, and had 2 in my bed. So I went to the bathroom. That was my only private space. I sat on the bathroom floor and held the phone, and I'm like, okay, okay, Dad, can you move the blanket so I can see her face a little better? Now lean over the bed. As long as they can hear our voice and we can see them, it works. But because Priscilla and I want to be there, we want to put our hands on the client, we want to bring the anxiety down in the room just by our presence.

That was super hard as a provider on the other side of a screen. It was super hard. We can't use our essential oils. We can't use our hand technique. It worked, but it was so hard emotionally on us because we want to be there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I guess the other side of that, the other question I want to ask is, um, do you— do y'all work in tandem with a lot of patients? I mean, especially with like the home births, are y'all both there? Because again, you're telling me that the midwifery and the doula services are very different.

They are.

Um, so I mean, one's literally delivery and one's literally the care surrounding the delivery. So do y'all do that together?

The doula, we do 12-hour shifts. Before labor, we are on a 3-way text. So we're constantly in communication with our clients from the very beginning. During labor, one of us will show up and spend 12 hours and then we'll swap. If they hire us for midwifery and doula services, then we're both there at the same time.

Okay. Okay. So that makes a lot of sense to me because these are different services, right? But they, they go hand in glove.

Yes.

as long as you want that service.

Could y'all just take a couple minutes and kind of break down the differences for those that are listening? Like, what's the difference between like a doula and a midwife?

So a doula is support and advocacy. So we are giving you the words, we're educating you. And then midwifery, it's, it's more like I said, they, they We're somewhat equal to an OB-GYN. We don't do surgery, but we do all your prenatals, your labs. We labor with you as well. We're there for the birth, for the delivery. We're there, we stay up to 2 hours after the birth. We come back at 24 hours, at 2 weeks, and then 4 weeks later. So we're there also. It's baby care too. It's infant care. So we—

That's interesting.

Yeah, so it's, it's, it's a big span of time. So it's all your prenatals again, where doula, it's more, they reach out when they have questions or concerns. We check in with them on a weekly basis. How's your, how's your prenatals? How's your doctor's appointment going? That, that kind of scenario with doula support. But midwifery, there's definitely more patient care.

So do you actually, as a midwife, do you actually do the delivery? Okay, so I guess the next question is, do you replace an OB-GYN?

If they don't need surgery.

Okay, so basically if there's a C-section needed, you—

We go to the hospital.

Yeah.

Okay, so, so let me, let me ask again, 1,000-foot view here.

Love it.

My wife and I, we're not having any more kids. That's physically impossible at this point. Um, but let's— let's—

I have a couple comments, but—

No, there, there will be questions asked if we have more kids. Um, but let's say that we, that we hire both of you. Okay, so you're now our team.

Yes, yes.

Well, that, that's actually a pretty good question then, Kev. I mean, like, I mean, with— I mean, no, I mean, because like you say we hire both of you, I mean, like, when, when we engage with you guys' services, Do we get both of you?

Yes.

Okay, no matter what?

Correct. No matter what, whether it's doula, you're going to get us both, whether it's midwifery, chances are you'll get us both because Christina will come and assist at the birth.

But the services are different.

A little bit.

Yeah.

So is that normal?

Yes.

I mean, like, for— I mean, like, I'm not just talking about for you guys. I'm like, in general.

No, in general. So a midwife, if you think about what an OB does, when your wife goes to her well-woman exam every year, she gets a pap smear, she gets a a breast exam. She may get some labs drawn and, you know, some checks off on the, on documentation saying, I'll see you in a year. At 35 years old, you need to go for your first mammogram, all that. A midwife can do all of that.

Okay.

She can see you all the way until the end.

Interesting.

Past menopause.

Okay.

Okay. She does most of her work— most midwives go into your home. Some have an office, and you go just like you would go to a doctor's office. You go to midwife office. But if it's in your home, it's so much calmer. It's your own bed. She brings all the equipment. Everything's there. If you need a sonogram, she's going to send it out, you know, write the script for it. If you need birth control, she can write a script for that. If you need antibiotics because you have a UTI, she can write a script for that.

Oh, wow.

So if you need stitches because you tore when you had the baby, she can sew that up. It's— she can take care of everything woman.

See, that's really good because, okay, so I, I guess kind of back to my original question Do you recommend having an OB-GYN? Or do you just recommend, look, if you have to have a C-section, for example, the ER is going to be able to do that. And whoever— because I would think that on some level, there is going to be some anxiety around not having someone that they've prepared to do that and just say, well, anybody can do a C-section, you know. But what is the— what have what have you, I guess, recommended normally?

So we've had to transfer before, um, and it's not, um, life-threatening, but maybe failure to progress. We're just not getting anywhere. We need to go to the hospital for some Pitocin. Um, or, you know, something's, something's happened in the pregnancy and now we need to transfer care. So that is something we do. I mean, we have our networking group. We know we can call on a specific doctor in their area and refer.

Okay, I assume at this point you've already gone through— this is the insurance that you have, we know that this— we partner with these doctors. That's already part of the conversation that you've already had pre— it's part of your birthing plan.

Right, we already know how— what's the nearest hospital, you know, those are part of the things that we go through in the initial consult.

So some people say, I want a midwife to come to my home, and they say, you know, I really don't think I need a doula. It's not, it's not required. You don't have to have a doula. So, but we are a midwife doula team. Most midwives have a midwife practice and they see clients, you know, they have regular gynecological clients and then they have regular OB clients and they see clients all day just like a doctor would. And then some clients say, I think I need more support, so they ask for a doula. They ask the midwife, who do you suggest?

Mm-hmm.

They're like, oh well, you know, here's a doula group you can find, go to Doula Match or whatever. But we are a team. Okay, so she's not going to recommend another doula to another client. She's going to recommend me, and we come as a team. If the client says, I don't think I need a doula, I just want the midwife service, then I would come and serve as a second pair of hands at the birth just to take care of baby.

Sure, because it's just necessary.

Yes.

For that, right?

Midwives make light work.

Well, you just need backup, and, and most midwives will call a backup midwife when it's getting time for the birth.

Okay, well, and look, when— again, going back to one of the reasons my wife regrets doing, uh, the, the induction is because she— I don't know that you're, you're gonna know the, the term better than, than me, but she had to be clipped. in order for the baby to come out. And she feels very strongly that if she didn't, that if she would have had birth naturally without the Pitocin, that she probably wouldn't have had that issue. Now, that, that's her own thought process. Who knows, right?

Right.

But in that situation, she had to have stitches, right? And that's one of those things that a midwife can figure out. She can do all those sorts of things, is what I'm hearing you say. That's not that's not something that is special, you know, like going back to the old, you know, um, Bill Cosby thing, like, get the salad tongs, right? You know, you know, uh, we had to use the salad tongs on my daughter as well. And so, um, but that's, that's just all stuff that a midwife would understand, would know, would work with. And that's— Yeah, that's, that's—

and it's pretty amazing. Most, um, Home births do not have tears. Yeah.

And well, again, I think that there's something to be said about the stress level. There's something to be said about the, you know, you're not being induced typically, right? Because you're not, you're not doing Pitocin at that point, right? We're not allowed to, right?

You're not allowed to induce. So it's natural. There's— and you have to qualify for a home birth. You have to be healthy. There can't be complications.

And that's something that you would tell them.

There's no— right, you can't have risks.

Right, right. Yeah. And so it is— again, my wife is probably not unfounded in thinking that that's the reason she really regrets it. I hope I'm not sharing too much. She doesn't listen to this. It's fine.

Even if you are, she'll never know.

She'll never know. But, but, you know, it's, it's an experience that I had too. I was there.

Sure.

I was there when it happened.

Sure.

I was there whenever the doctor said, hey, we're gonna have to do this. And she was like, okay, I guess so. You know, like, what do you do in that moment? And And, and here's part of the problem. We see the doctor at— when she tells us, come see me. And she— we, we go, we sit in a waiting room for however long, and we wait. And then we go into the, the physical room that we're, you know, the, the whatever exam room. And we sit there until she decides to show up.

Mm-hmm.

And we loved our person. She was wonderful, our doctor. Um, but I mean, those could take a long time.

Yeah.

And you're telling me you would come to my house to do that on my time when it's convenient? And again, it's just more things you have to—

and it—

look, this is one of the most exciting times of a person's life most of the time, right? Not always, but one of the most exciting times. But it's, again, it's something you just don't understand. You don't know all the things. And now I'm having to go sit— I'm sitting in a waiting room, everybody's looking at me. It's like, you're more fat than me, you know, all these things. It's like, how far along are you? It's like, oh, you know, it's like this weird conversation stuff that happens that I can just bypass.

Yeah.

And I can do it on my time in my way because it is a private thing, right? I don't know, man. I, I look back and I go, I, I think that there is so much value in what y'all are providing Thanks. And I hope that other people listening to this are feeling the same way as me. I don't know, Craig, how would you have—

I mean, I never feel like you.

Well, that's true. That's like, that's a whole nother— there's a—

You can't set me up like that.

Oh, man. I'm thinking of an animated TV show at the Beavis and Butt-Head episode right now where Beavis says, well, yeah, how do you feel about my mom? And she's like, that's not how I feel about your mom.

And he starts These hand movements.

Anyway, it's pretty funny.

Um, anyway, how do you— I mean, if you knowing now after having talking with, with Priscilla and Christina, would you— do you think y'all would have changed anything?

Well, so yes, maybe, because— and this is actually a good segue for me because you mentioned a minute ago that like if it's, if it's high risk, like you guys can't— there's, there's some things that you guys can't do. And I think you mentioned a while ago that legally you can't do some things. And so I'm curious as to what the regulatory board over that— because almost— so we've had 3 kids, all 3 of them have been high-risk pregnancies. And so I know that there's a different procedure around those kinds of things. So I'm actually curious how you guys would manage something like that.

we would transfer care.

Transfer care.

If they're not—

Immediately. Yeah.

And we would set them up with the right provider.

Yeah. And so like, just, just so people know, like, what are like categories of like what you guys would consider— not what you guys would consider, what they tell you are high risk?

Diabetes.

Okay.

Hypertension, preeclampsia, placenta previa.

What? I don't even know. It's like some of those I know what they are, but like the last one in particular, I don't even know what that is.

previa, when the placenta covers the cervix.

Okay.

All right. He still doesn't know. I still don't know.

If you think about— if you think about—

I know that those are words.

I need to— I need to— there's a model.

If you think about the tree, the roots of the tree is what we would consider the placenta.

Okay.

So you cannot have the roots come out before the baby.

Okay.

So it's— oh, it's in front of the door. we can't get the baby out. It has to be born by C-section.

Okay, that was my next question, is like preeclampsia, that makes it—

Preeclampsia is a liver condition that the body is actually rejecting the pregnancy. So they have high blood pressure, they start putting urine— their urine output has a lot of protein in it, and it's not supposed to.

Okay.

And they have visual disturbances, lots of headaches, but the blood pressure is uncontrollable. The only way to fix it is to get the baby out and her blood pressure issue goes away, the urine problem goes away, the liver problem goes away.

Interesting. So do, do any issues with like baby like exclude you guys from providing any kind of care?

Um, yeah, I mean, if they find something in the ultrasound that's not considered normal, then we would definitely not— anything like heart condition.

Yeah, especially like, I remember specifically whenever we or at a certain point, uh, we had basically declined the— I don't know what it's called— whenever the test that they test for abnormalities and genetic or amniocentesis, one of those. I think it was the second one. Yeah, amniocentesis. Um, did I say that right?

Sure did.

Um, way to go, Kev.

Yeah, it's where they put a very large needle inside the uterus. Yeah. And extract some of this.

That's one. Yeah, and we— because there's risk involved with that.

There is.

There is.

We declined that for that reason. And so then, um, then my daughter, uh, wound up having— they found some holes in her head that were abnormal, and they said, we, we now think that we need to do this. And so we agreed at that point. And everything wound up being fine. The holes healed up like they should have, and everything was fine eventually. Um, but if they would have found something, right, on that test, if we, if we didn't decline it, they would have found something on that test, I would assume at that point you're going, I'm— I unfortunately cannot help you anymore.

Correct.

If that happens and I've already paid you What happens then?

So there in the contract, there is a space to receive your money back minus anything I've done. So prenatal visits, I would deduct labs, I would deduct, but that's it.

I'm—

be prorated.

No, I think that's a great thing to know. Like, what happens if I hire you and then I can't use your services to actually what you said you were going to do, that's great to know in the contract there's a way out.

Yes. Yeah.

So do, do some of those issues prevent you guys from being in the delivery room?

Well, I mean, as a midwife, we're going to basically transfer service. Well, we would, we would be their support. So we would go with them to the hospital. Now, if they're having surgery, they won't let us back in. They're only going to allow dad or one person.

Yeah.

Which there's really no need for more than one person. You're out. Right.

But you may just transfer because failure to progress and you need some Pitocin. So we'll be in the room with you. It doesn't mean just because you transfer doesn't mean you're getting a C-section.

And at that point, it's like your doula services are still hugely important.

Correct. Now, if you transfer in labor, then there's no refund. We've been with you for months. I've labored with you. We've been at home. I can't help what's happened at home. Right? But we will go with you. Yeah, we're here. We're— we, for safety reasons, we're going to the hospital. I'm going to stay with you.

Yeah.

Well, and I would, I would think at that point, someone's going, look, I, I would imagine there's very few people that was like, you didn't actually help me. Because you obviously are still very involved.

Yes.

There's still a lot that you're doing. And by the way, there's a lot of post-pregnancy stuff that y'all work through as well. Oh, yes, definitely. So let's talk about post-pregnancy stuff, because we haven't really even gotten into that, except saying that as a midwife, you would go back and see them. What are those time frames again? 2 weeks and—

So 24 hours.

Okay, 24 hours.

Right.

And 2 weeks and then 4 weeks later.

Okay.

So we need to talk about that because I have crazy pregnancy stories that I can only share off the air. Okay.

So, yeah, I— yes. But you know, so I know some of them and they're interesting. But that being said, um, let's talk about some of the other services that you offer because I'll tell you right now, um, nurses are phenomenal. You were a nurse.

I still am.

You still are a nurse.

I still have my license.

And you know that they, they really, they're wonderful. I, we were so thankful for our nurses. They did a great job.

See how nice he's being sitting next to her?

Yeah, right. But here's the problem. I remember, okay. I remember when the doctors came in and they were like, look, your daughter is jaundiced a little bit. Um, we're gonna need to keep her an extra day. And they were kind of like, it's gonna be okay. And I was like, sweet, okay, another day. Like, all right, let's order another round of food, right? Like, like, I would— oh, you're gonna take care of her? You're doing a great job taking care of her. Because I knew it was gonna happen the moment that they let us go.

Yeah. She's yours.

We were done. And all of the help with breastfeeding—

I'm supposed to act like I know stuff.

Right.

It's like, who taught this kid to breastfeed?

Yeah.

Nobody.

Yeah.

Someone's got to teach this kid to breastfeed. They don't come out knowing that. It's not like a baby giraffe that eventually stands up and it's like they know what they're doing. No, nobody teaches that other than a nurse if you're at the hospital or a doula, right?

Yes.

Because there's services that are offered post-pregnancy.

Yes.

That you come to the house for, right?

Yes.

So can you explain some of those and what that looks like? Because that is an extra charge, I know, for some of it. I know there's some that's included, but there's some that's extra. Let's just talk through some of those services that you offer.

And I'm sorry, why is the breastfeeding person at the hospital always a dude?

Oh, ours wasn't.

I've never seen a dude.

Yes, that's really strange.

What hospital?

I, well, I don't wanna get into a defamation case. Did he?

Well, that's not right. I mean, they're over there like grabbing things and like touching things.

I've never seen one. Did he have a badge?

Yeah.

This is actually a bit that they do. What is that show? Scrubs.

Oh, yes.

On Scrubs, they do a bit about the breastfeeding guy being a guy and like—

I have been doing this since 1993. I've never seen one.

It's not Scrubs, it's The Office. Did you guys see the episode when Jim and Pam have their baby?

Oh, yes.

And the breastfeeding guy is a guy. Yeah, I remember that. And he's like, what?

Why are you—

But that's a show. That's not real life.

That is. But like, ours, one of ours was a guy.

Oh, you really?

Yes. That's kind of weird. That's super awkward. So it's like, you know, you're gonna do what with her? What? Okay.

All right.

All right. I guess like I would ask.

Well, and I can't— the reason I'm not answering, I can't remember because we had kids in 2 different hospitals here and I can't remember which one it was.

I have never seen a male lactation consultant.

That's the word.

Lactation consultant. Okay, so let's talk about lactation for a minute. Tell us about how that works and what you do. And I know there's other services you offer because look, here's the problem. Um, there's this really real thing that happens with a lot of women and it is not abnormal for you to be depressed afterwards. and to have problems about feeling like all of a sudden I don't have this baby inside of me for 9 months, right? And there, you know, this postpartum problem stuff happens and it's normal. You don't have to feel weird about that. But you offer some of those services because I remember, because I was here for the first episode. If you haven't listened to the first episode, please go listen to it. It was one of those.

No.

We didn't figure out which one it was. We're not— we have some friends who like, They're like, remember on episode number blah blah blah when we said this?

You have people do that to you too?

Yeah, we don't— I don't know what the numbers are. It was like number— it was number something. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know which one it was, but it was one of those episodes where y'all did— you came on, did a fantastic job. But let's reiterate them. Let's talk about them.

So our package, our doula package, if we— if you hire us as a doula, um, we run 12-hour shifts. We labor you at home. The childbirth class is included. We stay with you for up to 2 hours after the birth, whether it's at home or a hospital or a birth center, and we take the photos and all that. And we're also qualified to teach breastfeeding. So we, we have our own baby dolls. We bring our own little baby dolls and our own knitted boob, and we mock. We want the mom to, um, model, or we model and they mimic.

Okay.

So they mimic what we do and we say, hold your boob here, hold the baby here, get the baby on. And then once baby's latched, and we talk about how often you need to do this, for how long on each side, these are the cues you're looking for, what dad can do to help with pillows and holding baby's hands out of the way. And then we part ways. So we're on call for that mom for 2 weeks after birth. So via text or phone calls, and then we make an in-person home visit for 1 hour. And that is when we reevaluate breastfeeding. We talk about how to pump, how to store your milk, when to introduce a bottle, swaddle techniques, all that kind of stuff.

Because—

and we make an evaluation regarding her emotions at that point too.

Look, y'all, again, I, I say this all the time to, to young couples when I'm like, unfortunately, there is no manual that leaves the hospital with you, and you have to just kind of figure it out on your own. And I'll tell you, that is probably one of the most intimidating, one of the most— I, I'm a pretty non-stressful type of person. I don't get hyper about a lot of things. I'm just pretty even keel. The Kevin you get today is the Kevin you're gonna get tomorrow. For the most part, unless Dak Prescott's involved.

Or the Cowboys.

Or the Cowboys. Yeah, I get— but here's the thing. When you get home with something that you don't— you— she's crying.

Yeah.

And you don't know why. And you're crying and you don't know why. And you're— what? And it's really worse when your wife's crying and you don't know why.

Sure.

Like, I'm almost getting a little emotional about it right now.

Sure.

And, um, because I remember those moments.

Because you want to fix it.

I want to fix it. As a dude, I want to fix it. I want to figure it out.

We tell all of our dads in the class, your job is not to fix it. Your job is to be.

Yeah. And, and honestly, that's, that's hard.

It is hard.

Because I want to be what she needs me to be, and she can't tell me what she needs me to be. And so that's all very, very difficult. So I think that the fact that you are literally coming to my house afterward.

Yes.

is huge. And, and you're not my mother-in-law. No, because I love my mother-in-law. My mother-in-law, if she's listening right now, I love you. And I really, and I really, really love my mother-in-law.

She does listen more than your wife.

There's no doubt about that. She's wonderful.

Yeah.

And my mom's wonderful. But at some point it's like, it's a professional coming to your home. It is. It's different.

It is different. There's no emotional baggage associated with us.

Mm-hmm.

So, um, that is the role that we play as a doula. Now, if you hire Priscilla as your midwife and me as your doula, then she's going to come see you 24 hours after, check on you and baby, and then do it again at 2 weeks and again at 4 weeks. And I'm going to come about the 10-day or so, and then my services are over. So I do everything pregnancy and delivery and 2 weeks after, and I'm done. Priscilla can continue to see this mama until she's Okay, so it's a great continuity of care.

Wow. Yeah, okay, so here's the other thing that just popped into my mind. So even if you have insurance, you're gonna pay copays, you're gonna have out-of-pocket expenses, there's gonna be stuff that happens, right? And so I'm assuming that on some level when you start factoring in a bunch of those things, it's probably not all that different with price points. I mean, y'all are reasonable. You told me what they were last time, but—

It's actually cheaper. It's cheaper.

A lot cheaper. Yeah.

See, that's silly, y'all.

No, that's silly. So if you were to go to the hospital and pay for a vaginal birth without insurance, it'd cost you about $4,000.

Okay. I don't, I don't really have $4,000 saved.

That's the hospital. That's the hospital fee. Yeah, because if you use your insurance, it's probably going to cost you about $15,000. That's what the hospital is going to charge the insurance policy.

So—

That should tell you everything you need to know.

And that's not doctor fees.

That's not doctor fees or epidurals.

Yeah, if you get an epidural, that's separate.

That's just the hospital.

Correct.

Yeah.

But what I found is with insurance, for some reason, they will pay for like prenatal visits, postpartum visits, but they won't pay for the birth because it's in your home. So we just, I just submit super bills. For my clients, and they get reimbursed.

So you're telling me—

For all the prenatals and postnatals.

That there are ways—

Oh yes.

That even hiring you, I can get some of it reimbursed, basically?

Absolutely, yes.

Y'all.

Yes.

Okay, if you're listening right now and you have the idea of having a baby in the future, please call these people. First of all, if you don't, if you don't live near call someone, just ask a lot of questions.

Yeah.

And if you've already had your babies, like, and you got other babies coming on the way because you got grandchildren, maybe this is a really good option. And not just an option, I, I feel like there's something very, very cool about this. And, and so let me ask you this question, because here's what my wife would say. I, I know her very well. Here's what she would say. Um, but I want a doctor. I want a doctor, like a doctor who's been to school, board certified, blah, blah, blah, all the things. How— I'm just curious, how would you not necessarily defend yourself, but how would you say, here's— let me explain this to you? What would you say to that? And I guess, Priscilla, this is—

Yeah, I would just say home birth is not for everybody. I'm not going to talk you into it.

Okay.

Yeah, no, I'm not gonna do it. You have to want to do it. I'll educate you, but I'm not gonna talk you into it. Or the dad.

I would imagine someone who's anxious already is not going to be a good client.

Yes, that's—

I mean, unless they're, unless they're up to being persuaded, but like, you know, like if they're already like at, you know, 8, you know, it's just not gonna be— it's probably not gonna be a good fit.

Right, right. And I, and I also say, who do you plan on being at the birth? Who's going to be at your house? Oh, my mother-in-law. How do they feel about you having a home birth? Because if they're not comfortable, if they're feared, you know, have fear about it, it's not gonna— it's not gonna end well. We're gonna end up transferring because their anxiety to your anxiety.

Yeah, that's no fun.

That winds up becoming a liability too, I would assume, somewhere along the way. And obviously, let's just talk business for this long. like, you want to limit your liability on that, right?

I want you to want a home birth. I don't want to talk you into it, right? You know, it's right. That's not—

that's not fair to anybody, really.

No, no, no. I mean, we were talking earlier before the show got started that there's a perceived difference even between a home birth and a birthing center.

Yes. A lot of the dads— and I want to say dads because I guess the moms are a little more educated— dads are kind of like, you want to do what? You want a home birth? You want to birth center birth. There is no difference. You can't have surgery at a birth center.

Right.

They have all the same equipment that we carry at home— oxygen, Pitocin after. We can give Pitocin after the birth to help clamp down the uterus. So it helps with hemorrhage. But we carry all the things for the baby as well. So there's really There's really no difference. You do have to travel in labor to a birth center. And then you go home about 4 hours later. Other than that, that's the difference between— So it's actually more difficult. It's more difficult. And it's more expensive. You're paying for the ambulances.

It's double.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah.

And some people prefer it. Maybe their home isn't the place to labor. You know, maybe they, they live with other family members and they need a place to go.

Or they live in an apartment.

Yeah, yeah. And that's, that's understandable to want to go to a birth center. But some women want the chandeliers and the nice tub and all that kind of stuff. So, but as far as safety or surgery or meds, if you can't get an epidural at a birth center, so you have to transfer to the hospital.

I've heard more than one person who's used a birthing center say something like, we thought we were going to have to wind up at the hospital. for this or that or the other, and it's just no different, right?

There's no difference.

Well, when you said a minute ago that it was double, are you talking about like the cost?

The cost.

The cost of it?

The cost is more expensive at a birth center. It's more expensive than to have your baby at home.

Okay.

Because you're paying the facility fee.

Okay. Yeah, that one, that, that makes total sense.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, I'm not saying people should do that, right? But it makes sense that it would be Twice as expensive, right?

Because it's a facility. Yeah. It has their own expenses. Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, most of our clients that have had a birth center experience, they choose home birth after, after that, because they realize, I don't want to travel in labor. I don't want to travel after birth with a baby. I want to be home.

So, and they don't necessarily provide a meal or anything like that. The hospital does. It's not great. It is hospital food. But in your own home, if you've been in labor all day, you're going to ask your mother-in-law, your neighbor, hey, I think I'm in labor. Can you bring something to eat after? You know, that's when women support women. And so mom has typically already, you know, made casseroles or food's already in the freezer. So by the, by the time the birth has happened in the home, it looks like nothing's happened.

Mm-hmm.

So like all the cleanup is done, the laundry started, and we've already fed mom. She has to eat. and urinate. Baby has to eat and urinate before we leave.

Can I tell you a really funny story? I think it's funny. Um, 2, 2 actually. So, so before we ever— like the week before we knew we were being induced, so that was already planned.

Number 1, number 2?

Number 1.

Okay.

Number 1, we're being induced.

We—

and so I, um, We made a lot of crock pot, you know, things and frozen them, lots of different things. We'd made like 2 weeks worth of food.

Mm-hmm.

And we also knew that we had, you know, a church family that was gonna be providing food as well, all these sorts of things. So we, we felt like, okay, we probably got a good month here in advance. And I posted something like, hey, we got food for a couple of weeks, we got this, no big deal, blah blah. I did that on purpose because I knew so we'd get severe backlash. But so we did have that going, but we wound up, um, when we were in the hospital with my second child and it was Christmas Eve. And so the next day we'd gotten our food. And it's so funny the way— because we got a receipt for our— I say it's a receipt, it's more like an itemized checklist of things that we got

for our food. And it was Christmas Day. So we had like it would say one turkey, one dressing, one gravy, one all these sorts of things. And the very bottom, it said one Merry Christmas. It was like, it was a code that they had to like punch in and it put Merry Christmas on there. And I think I've still got that because I was like, we're keeping that.

Wow.

Because it was so funny because it said one Merry Christmas.

How much they charge you for that?

Who knows? The Merry Christmas was probably like $15 or something, you know? But it was so funny that they had to itemize every single little thing. And I was like, someone got a one Easter, like a one New Year's Day, right? So it was just pretty funny.

I've not seen one of those.

I'm pretty sure we kept it.

Now where it is right now, I'm really more interested in what's the return policy on that.

Yeah, my Merry Christmas wasn't as good as I thought it should be.

Terrible.

Yeah, who do I need to talk to, the manager? Yeah. Yeah, I don't really know.

Manager of food services.

Exactly. But yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things you just don't think about, like food at that moment.

Exactly.

Like, I just want a burger or something. Like, I need something to eat. I, I don't know. There's so many things that unfortunately you— this is supposed to be a beautiful day. Yes, and it is a beautiful day, but everybody is tired.

Dad's been doing this as long as Mom has. they're exhausted. So I will say, um, Uber Eats has really flourished in the COVID time.

Oh, they have.

Yeah.

And, uh, and that was always allowed in the hospital. So Dad could go down if, if even if Dad wasn't allowed to go to his car, he'd go down the lobby and get his Uber Eats.

Interesting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that has been really good for clients, especially those that, you know, Mom does all the cooking and now Dad's expected to pick up where she left off and he's not feeding her very well. At least they can get Uber Eats.

Interesting.

Are you guys finding that, that mom and dad are more hesitant to go to the hospital over the last 2 years because of COVID Yes. Yeah?

Yes, definitely.

And, and from, from— I mean, just obviously this is just your experience, but like, what are they— are they opting more for home birth, or are they opting for like—

what, what are they, what are they trying to lean into?

They're definitely more open-minded to home birth. Yeah, because of policies in the hospital.

And worried it's going to change. It may be one thing one day, and next week it's different.

Are they worried about not being able to get a bed?

Sometimes that happens though. I mean, we've had, we've had mamas in triage for a while. Yes. And it's not because of COVID it's because the amount of women being induced.

Yes.

They're taking up the bed.

So, and the nurse shortage.

Yeah. And so when we have a mama in labor, They don't know what to do with them. They're like, go sit in the waiting room. We've got, we've got mamas coming in here already for induction. You gotta wait, you know. So, um, that's the problem with the beds at the hospital.

And again, that's stressful.

Yes.

And later we're doing, we're doing things that are, that are creating stress.

Yes.

That are unnecessary.

Yes.

And I, I get it. Like, it's not for everybody.

There are some inductions that need to happen.

Sure.

And as a nurse, I know that.

Well, and I, and I respect it. Sure. There are other people that we know are going to have to have a C-section, right? Just gonna have to happen. But that means you probably don't need a midwife in that moment, but you just still could use a doula.

Correct.

Right. So it's not that, it's not that the services that you provide are unnecessary, it's just they probably are different than someone who's doing a home birth, right?

It's what I call a pivot point. It's a pivot point. If we, if we've, um, if we have a client that decides to use Priscilla as a midwifery, um, practice and uses me as the doula, and we get close to the end of, um, pregnancy and baby's upside down, baby's butt first, breech, can't deliver at home.

Nope.

Yeah, so now we're gonna pivot. Yep, now we're gonna pivot.

Well, so what— let's, let's maybe like speak to like first-time mamas then. Like, if you're planning on going to the hospital, I mean, Because if they're, if they're going to like their mom or their friends who have had children previously, you know, outside of the COVID era, what should they be expecting when they do go to the hospital? Maybe, I mean, just to kind of go like, okay, here's, here's the things that you guys should be expecting that maybe you wouldn't normally have had to have done. And, and maybe that might change some mindsets about, you know, how they want to proceed with their births.

Yeah, the first thing is you are probably not going to get any say whether you get an IV or not. You're gonna have some kind of apparatus in your arm.

Okay.

That's hospital policy. Um, hospitals are really more open than they've ever been to birth plans. Back in the day when I was working, if a nurse saw a birth plan, she wouldn't read it because she thought it would be a bad omen for the client.

Oh, really?

Yeah. Yeah.

In what way?

In that everything that she said she wants, everything that she said she wanted on there is going to be opposite.

Oh, so it's almost like we're setting— we're setting you up for failure.

Exactly.

Okay.

But that was back in the day. We have come so far, and now nurses say, do you have a birth plan? Do you like me to put in your birth chart?

Interesting.

So, I mean, so they're much more open to that, and I do like that. So like, my mom never had a birth plan. She wouldn't even know how to develop one, you know what I'm saying?

Sure.

So that would be different if someone went to my mom and say, how— what was it like to have your kids? Well, first of all, her husband wasn't even there.

Mm-hmm.

But with her third, my sister is 40 and my dad was allowed in there. So that's different if you're going to ask people of an older generation. They're going to have an IV and they're going to ask you for your birth plan. There is a lot of research about delayed cord clamping and that's very different that our grandmothers and mothers didn't know about, still don't know about. it's a— it's very— it's still very controversial. There's studies that support both sides, but midwifery believes you should let the blood continue to pulsate to the baby and not clamp it and not cut it until it's done.

Oh.

Because the baby is getting a surge of extra blood.

Okay.

Some research says that causes more jaundice. Other research says it's better to leave it. So midwife clients Their, their babies are fine. They don't have any jaundice.

So no issues.

Real quick, I want to be clear. Like, you're saying some of the research is saying by pre-clamping it's causing jaundice?

Yes. Or, or leaving it pulsating as long as it wants.

That's also caused—

No, just not pre.

Okay.

Letting it stop pulsating is causing the jaundice.

Okay.

But clamping too soon can cause anemia.

So, okay, well, like anemia that like lasts forever?

Well, I mean, there could be— I don't know how long. It just depends on, you know, how— how—

There's lots of—

there's lots of things that go into that, right?

Okay.

Right.

Yes. So a lot of moms are now educating themselves and trying to find the words to negotiate with their physician in the pregnancy about birth. How long will you give me to let that blood continue to pulsate?

Because they do it pretty quick.

I mean, it's usually doctors will give you 1 to 3 minutes.

Okay.

I mean, I, I cut that cord pretty quick.

That has been a big change. And how old is your youngest?

My youngest is 7.

Yeah.

Yeah, same with mine. Mine's 6.

That is a new thing where mothers are being more advocating for themselves in the pregnancy. They have it in the birth plan and they're talking to their doctor before labor even begins. How long will you let me let the, the blood pulsate before clamping.

And how long will they typically let you?

1 to 3 minutes.

Okay, so like unless you advocate and you can go longer than that?

Yes, you can wait until it stops pulsating, but it depends on your OB. Yes, in a home birth, we're going to wait till it stops pulsating as long as there's no complication.

Oh, correct.

Interesting.

So those are the things that are changing that from other generations would not even know to ask.

Are OBs like picking up on that and like adopting some of these practices?

Yeah, yeah, some aren't. The most I've seen is 3 minutes.

Okay, they're not, they're not in there long, you know. They catch and yeah, that's about it. Cut the cord and—

well, I was gonna say that. I mean, like, like our experience with our ROB was like, I mean, he basically showed up with the catcher's mitt and yeah, you know, we got the cord cut and then he was gone.

Yeah, yeah. And then he sends you a bill. Yeah, yeah, that's the way that goes.

Good for him.

Yeah, but there's other things that we need to talk about.

Okay.

That we talked about the last time that we need to talk about, y'all. And because if we don't talk about it, I'm gonna feel like we had an incomplete episode.

Okay.

And it's weird to me, but like the whole placenta thing that you say, even like eat like wedding cake later.

It's not for Dad. It's not for Dad. We have been asked that. The dad said, do I take it? No, not unless you're having some lactation problems or bleeding problems or mood issues.

If so, we probably have other issues.

Yeah, like, I had some lactation issues. I'm sorry. I don't know what to do. No, but okay, so there's a very real service that you offer, and can you explain it? Because I'm gonna screw it up, so please don't make me do it.

Yes, I want to go backward one more step.

Let's do it.

Um, asking the question about what's different between other generations, like maybe your older sister just had a kid. They're doing, which I'm very happy to see, in the hospital setting, they're letting mamas eat clear liquid diet. Now it's not food, you know, it's broth, popsicles. I don't know if your wives were restricted to ice chips. Ice chips.

Yeah, yeah, we were.

They have progressed in this now. Now it's soup. soup and Jell-O and tea and popsicles.

She would have been so much happier.

I know, I know.

What has changed that?

Um, I think it's because they're realizing that that was very restrictive to the mom. It's too restrictive. We're asking her to fast and she has to run a marathon, essentially.

Well, so, but like, why, why do that in the first place?

Why they did it in the first place was they were worried that if she got an epidural and she had gastric juices in her stomach, and something happened with epidural that it didn't work or it was bad or baby didn't do well and they needed an immediate emergent C-section. We got to get the baby out in 3 minutes. Something's gone awry. They have to put mom to sleep. They put a tube down her throat, and if, if, if she, um, regurgitates, all of what— whatever is gastric, gastric juices that are in her stomach go to her lungs.

Oh.

It's called aspiration.

Oh yeah.

So they're worried. It's about worry, right? It was about fear.

It's about CYA is what that is.

Oh yes, I didn't want to say those words, but you read my mind. It's exactly right. So they're realizing now that those instances are super, super rare. That first of all, we even have to do an emergency C-section, right? Emergency means less than 3 minutes. We got to get this baby out, right? Okay, very rare. Very rare to need that. But there are instances where you get the epidural and it drops your blood pressure so low they have to give you medicine to raise it. And if it doesn't raise, baby doesn't like it, now we have to consider a C-section.

Yeah.

And we— the anesthesiologist wants to know when was the last time you ate and what did you eat. They have to know so they can neutralize those gases, those acids in your stomach.

Interesting.

The other thing that's changed, and I'm really, really happy about, is they're really promoting skin-to-skin. That when the baby's born, no matter how quick they cut the cord, they're really wanting to undress mom, get baby tucked in like a, like a kangaroo. They want baby skin to skin.

That was, that was even a big deal whenever, like 7 years ago. That was a big deal then.

Yes.

And even 9 years ago.

That's something that homebirds have done from the very beginning. I'm sure.

But again, okay, let's, let's say this before we get to the weird stuff. Let's, let's say this. Because I think this is important. Um, in those moments, mom and dad don't have a clue. The nurse is saying this, the doctor's saying this, or we're looking around, we're going, I don't know, I don't know. And having a doula in there to go, okay, um, as an— as your advocate, here's what I suggest.

Correct.

Because even in— I mean, you're, you're sitting here saying, Priscilla, that that 3 weeks before this person was supposed to, you know, 40 weeks is normal, right?

Right.

3 weeks early, hey, I'm having these things, you're able to go and say, I think you're good. Here's what you can do to fix this, or to at least temper it until, you know, blah, blah, blah. I'm sure that that person was so happy.

Oh, yes.

Because not having to stress, not having to go into the doctor, because look, every time you walk into a doctor's office, they're gonna charge of money almost every time, right? So, you know, now it's more money, now it's more this, now it's more that. But, but just having someone in the moment going, look, they've done everything that they can do, you're gonna have to have an emergency C-section, right? Right. I'm gonna be right here whenever you get back.

Exactly.

Like, all of those conversations exactly make, make me as a dad and her as, you know, the mom look at this and go, okay, they've done everything they can, right? And Christina agrees, Priscilla agrees, this is the right thing to do, right? Dad doesn't know, right? Dad's like, what?

I don't know.

Like, he didn't know to begin with, correct?

Correct.

I don't know.

And that, that has happened, and we've had to give moms— especially if we have time, if it's not emergent, it's what you call urgent, okay? Um, so we really try to respect the couple and say, you know, I know this is not what you planned. It's not what I planned for you. I'm going to give you all some moments alone.

Wow.

And Priscilla and I will step out and then come back in 10 minutes and say, are you good? I— this is a grieving process, but you are in very good hands. You're in a very good hospital. You know, we— you can't go forward with any regret. Tell me, do you have any regret? Let's talk about it. And the nurses are doing their thing, getting the paperwork done and all that.

But, but that's the thing, they're doing their thing, they're getting their paperwork done, they're doing all the things, and they come back, did you make a decision yet?

Are you sure?

It's time to make a decision. You have to make a decision right now. And yeah, and it's, it's a little bit urgent. Yeah, it's a little bit weird. It's a little bit like, I don't know what's the right thing to do, but yeah, but yeah, but if you were here, yeah, either one of you, I could go, babe, she She said this was the right thing to do. And while I don't know what I'm doing, yeah, and you don't know what you're doing, yeah, she said this is the best thing to do.

Yeah.

And it, and it, and it, it's just another voice, right?

I call it—

and it's not— it's not your mom.

No, it's not.

Because your mom makes it— your mom is emotional too.

Yes.

It's all emotional. You're able to remove the emotion.

And sometimes we're crying with the client. We're sad too. But we're saying, you know what, no one can say you didn't try. Right.

It's about trying, doing everything possible before we end up in a C-section. And that's what our job is, is to try everything. We're thinking for them. They don't have to.

Yeah. And if all things go wrong, I mean, you can still eat the placenta.

Absolutely.